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Author Topic: Benedict XVI dead at 95  (Read 20899 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
« Reply #255 on: January 07, 2023, 06:08:24 AM »
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  • That is not a reason at all. If that is the reason, then you are saying one of two things:
    1) "If the pope is the pope we cannot persevere in the faith."
    2) "We are only able to persevere in the faith because the Chair is vacant."

    Without confirmation from you, I refuse to believe this is what you are saying Miser.

    These are fundamental Catholic truths, these do not answer how sedeism profits souls unto salvation or the purpose of sedeism.

    No, Fr Cekada stated that *according to the law* a heretic could indeed be elected as the pope. No secrecy, no imposters - he said according to the law, and he was correct, and even if he never said it, that *is* the law. This means that there is a pope to name in the Mass and that non-una cuм breaks the law. And in the breaking of that law is the cause of disunity and is an act of schism - not according to me, according to Ex Quo, which means according to:

    1) The Church which is infallible
    2) The magisterium which is immune from error
    3) The law established and taught by true popes
    4) Popes who cannot teach error
    5) I could go on and on

    It fascinates me to hear that all of these infallible sources and  teachings are able to be rejected from us peons because peons ranging from old grannies to bishops, cling to their opinion that there is no pope while one sits right in the chair - according to the law.

    But even more fascinating is that not one sede can give a clear answer as to what purpose sedeism serves and how it profits souls unto salvation. This in and of itself speaks volumes imo.


    Please quote Father Cekada saying that a heretic can be “elected as the pope”. Please reference any pre VII *authority* that agrees with what you just wrote stating a heretic can be “elected as the pope”.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #256 on: January 07, 2023, 07:00:53 AM »
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  • Please quote Father Cekada saying that a heretic can be “elected as the pope”. Please reference any pre VII *authority* that agrees with what you just wrote stating a heretic can be “elected as the pope”.

    Sounds as if he's attributing sedeprivationism to Father Cekada, or else he's misinterpreting something Father C may have said about the following:

    St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII did in fact lift any LEGAL impediments (including excommunication for heresy) to election to the papacy ... one of the very few mistakes Pope St. Pius X ever made, but it was in fact a serious mistake.  I also know that St. Pius X was furious over the veto that blocked Rampolla from getting elected instead of him, but that was the Holy Ghost at work giving us St. Pius X instead of Rampolla.  Otherwise, we likely would have had Vatican II in 1930.

    Nevertheless, this has nothing to do with the Divine Law impediment to holding the office.  AFAIK, Father Cekada never accepted sedeprivationism, somehow thinking that a heretic elected to the papacy would hold the "office".  In fact, Father Cekada speaks about how the straight sedevacatists abandoned the position that the V2 papal claimants FELL from the papacy on account of heresy, in favor of saying they were impeded from even being elected to the papacy.


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #257 on: January 07, 2023, 07:01:08 AM »
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  • Please quote Father Cekada saying that a heretic can be “elected as the pope”. Please reference any pre VII *authority* that agrees with what you just wrote stating a heretic can be “elected as the pope”.
    First, the pre-V2 authority:
    Pope St. Pius X's Vacante Apostolica Sede December 25, 1904:
    "29. None of the Cardinals, on the pretext or cause of any excommunication, suspension, interdict or other
    ecclesiastical hindrance, can be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff in any
    way; indeed, we suspend such censures and excommunications only for the effect of this election, to those
    who will otherwise continue in their strength."

    Pope Pius XII's Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis December 8, 1945:
    "34. No Cardinal can in any way be excluded from the active and passive election of the
    Supreme Pontiff on the pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict, or
    other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever; We, in fact, suspend these censures only for the
    effect of an election of this sort; they will remain in their own force in other circuмstances."

    Second, Fr. Cekada:II. SUSPENSION OF CENSURES AND IMPEDIMENTS
    "Having established the meaning of these terms in paragraph 34 of Pius XII’s Constitution, we can easily see the point of the law: to avoid endless wrangling about the validity of papal elections.

    It then becomes easy to answer the second question: “Does it lift all excommunications, ecclesiastical impediments and censures for all the participants in a papal conclave?”

    The answer is yes.

    Does paragraph 34 also cover the case of an excommunicated cardinal who has been elected pope?

    Again, the answer is yes, because the Constitution used the terms active and passive election, which mean, respectively, being able to vote and being able to be elected. So it is indeed correct to say that Pius XII’s Constitution explicitly allows an excommunicated cardinal to be validly elected pope."


    Of course later in the article he effectively makes all of this utterly meaningless by using his own interpretations and theological wizardry, but at least he did say the above truth.
    *
    *
    *
    *
    Also, still seeking an answer as to what purpose sedeism serves and how it profits souls unto salvation.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #258 on: January 07, 2023, 07:04:41 AM »
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  • Called it.  Father Cekada does not mean they legitimately held the office but merely that any impediments to legitimate election from CANON law were lifted, but the entire point of Bellarmine's thesis (to which Father Cekada adheres) is that heretics are impeded by DIVINE law from holding the office.  If the Canon Law that says only men could be elected to the papacy were lifted, a woman who somehow got elected would be disqualified by divine law.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #259 on: January 07, 2023, 07:06:04 AM »
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  • Called it.  Father Cekada does not mean they legitimately held the office but merely that there any impediments to legitimate elecction from CANON law were lifted, but the entire point of Bellarmine's thesis (to which Father Cekada adheres) is that heretics are impeded by DIVINE law from holding the office.  If the Canon Law that says only men could be elected to the papacy were lifted, a woman who somehow got elected would be disqualified by divine law.
    Another question that remains unanswered is: Which Divine Law?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #260 on: January 07, 2023, 07:08:31 AM »
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  • This actually speaks to a mistake made by +Lefebvre in one of his talks where he speculates that the See might be vacant if one of the popes had been excommunicated for joining the Masons, but that would be incorrect, as such excommunications were in fact lifted by St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #261 on: January 07, 2023, 07:12:48 AM »
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  • This actually speaks to a mistake made by +Lefebvre in one of his talks where he speculates that the See might be vacant if one of the popes had been excommunicated for joining the Masons, but that would be incorrect, as such excommunications were in fact lifted by St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII.

    Question: That would apply to John XXIII then? He would have been properly elected (putting aside any Siri issues) even if a Mason?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #262 on: January 07, 2023, 07:18:59 AM »
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  • First, the pre-V2 authority:
    Pope St. Pius X's Vacante Apostolica Sede December 25, 1904:
    "29. None of the Cardinals, on the pretext or cause of any excommunication, suspension, interdict or other
    ecclesiastical hindrance, can be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff in any
    way; indeed, we suspend such censures and excommunications only for the effect of this election, to those
    who will otherwise continue in their strength."

    Pope Pius XII's Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis December 8, 1945:
    "34. No Cardinal can in any way be excluded from the active and passive election of the
    Supreme Pontiff on the pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict, or
    other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever; We, in fact, suspend these censures only for the
    effect of an election of this sort; they will remain in their own force in other circuмstances."

    Second, Fr. Cekada:II. SUSPENSION OF CENSURES AND IMPEDIMENTS
    "Having established the meaning of these terms in paragraph 34 of Pius XII’s Constitution, we can easily see the point of the law: to avoid endless wrangling about the validity of papal elections.

    It then becomes easy to answer the second question: “Does it lift all excommunications, ecclesiastical impediments and censures for all the participants in a papal conclave?”

    The answer is yes.

    Does paragraph 34 also cover the case of an excommunicated cardinal who has been elected pope?

    Again, the answer is yes, because the Constitution used the terms active and passive election, which mean, respectively, being able to vote and being able to be elected. So it is indeed correct to say that Pius XII’s Constitution explicitly allows an excommunicated cardinal to be validly elected pope."


    Of course later in the article he effectively makes all of this utterly meaningless by using his own interpretations and theological wizardry, but at least he did say the above truth.

    :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: I am sure you’ve been told this many many times, but do you REALIZE that manifest pertinacious heretics are OUTSIDE of the Church by divine law? Do you realize that the Constitution is an ecclesiastical law? I love how you selected just one small part of Fr. Cekada’s article just to supposedly enhance your case. That is extremely disingenuous of you. For the readers of Cathinfo here is the whole article:


    Can an Excommunicated Cardinal be Elected Pope?
    QUESTION: The Constitution of Pope Pius XII that establishes the rules for a papal conclave says the following:
    Quote
    “34. No Cardinal, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, in-terdict or other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever can be excluded in any way from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff. Moreover, we suspend such censures for the effect only of this election, even though they shall remain otherwise in force.” (Cons. “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis,” 8 December 1945)
    I have several questions about this:
    (1) What is the Church’s interpretation of this passage?
    (2) Does it lift all excommunications, ecclesiastical impediments and censures for all the participants in a papal conclave? Does this also include the cardinal who has been elected pope, because that is what the term “passive” election seems to mean?
    (3) If so, the passage means an excommunicated cardinal can be validly elected pope. Doesn’t this shoot down the fundamental principle behind the entire sedevacantist case?

    RESPONSE: Over the years, many traditionalist writers in the SSPX camp, such as Fr. Carl Pulvermacher, Michael Davies, Fr. Dominque Boulet, and the Dominicans of Avrillé — and even conservative writers such as Fr. Brian hαɾɾιson — have cited this passage as a definitive answer to sedevacantism. Pius XII explicitly suspended any excommunications, ecclesiastical impediments and censures whatsoever for whoever was elected pope, so (their argument goes) a heretic could be elected a true pope.
    But is this a correct principle to draw from the passage? We will address the broader question first, that of interpretation.
    .
    I. INTERPRETATION OF LAW
    ————————————————————————

    Generally speaking, “interpretation” in canon law comes either from a public authority, such as the pope, his curia, etc. (this is called authentic interpretation) or from another recognized source, such as the teaching of canonists (and this is called doctrinal interpretation). (For a complete discussion, see Abbo and Hannon, 1:17.)
    I have not been able to find a papal or curial pronouncement interpreting or explaining the passage in question. It appears with essentially the same wording in papal election legislation promulgated by Clement V (1317), Pius IV (1562), Gregory XV (1621), and Pius X (1904). So, its meaning must have seemed self-evident — at least to curial types.
    Where there is no interpretation from a public authority — and this is frequently the case in canon law — you look to other passages in the Code and to the teaching of canonists (academic experts in canon law) to find out what the terms mean. By following this procedure, the meaning of the passage in Pius XII’s constitution becomes clear. So, we will now slog through the terminology.
    (a) Censures. The “excommunication, suspension and interdict” that the pontiff mentioned are censures — punishments that ecclesiastical law inflicts on a wrong-doer to get him to repent. (For an overview, see Bouscaren, Canon Law, 815–6) Cardinals are exempt from incurring censures, except in cases where the law specifies otherwise. (Canon 2227.2)
    In a papal conclave cardinal elector or a pope-elect who had nevertheless somehow incurred an excommunication would face some nearly insurmountable obstacles. The effects of this censure bar an excommunicate from administering or receiving sacraments, exercising jurisdiction, voting, appointing others to offices, and indeed, being elected to church office at all. (See Bouscaren, 831–4.) That would leave the pope-elect nothing but waving from the balcony and riding in the popemobile. (Not mentioned by Bouscaren…)
    Censures are also sometimes called medicinal penalties because their purpose is to cure the wrongdoer’s stubbornness. This distinguished them from vindictive penalties, which directly expiate a crime, independent of whether the wrong-doer repents. (Bouscaren, 846.)
    (b) Ecclesiastical Impediments. The term “other ecclesiastical impediment” mentioned in Pius XII’s Constitution is a more generic category.
    One such impediment, for example, is the vindictive penalty of infamy — loss of reputation due to some horrible crime. Among other things, this penalty renders the criminal ineligible for church offices, dignities, etc. (Bouscaren, 849.)
    This impediment, then, like excommunication, would bar a cardinal from either voting in a conclave or from being elected pope.
    .
    II. SUSPENSION OF CENSURES AND IMPEDIMENTS
    ————————————————————————

    Having established the meaning of these terms in paragraph 34 of Pius XII’s Constitution, we can easily see the point of the law: to avoid endless wrangling about the validity of papal elections.
    It then becomes easy to answer the second question: “Does it lift all excommunications, ecclesiastical impediments and censures for all the participants in a papal conclave?”
    The answer is yes.
    Does paragraph 34 also cover the case of an excommunicated cardinal who has been elected pope?
    Again, the answer is yes, because the Constitution used the terms active and passive election, which mean, respectively, being able to vote and being able to be elected. So it is indeed correct to say that Pius XII’s Constitution explicitly allows an excommunicated cardinal to be validly elected pope.
    .
    III. AN ARGUMENT AGAINST SEDEVACANTISM?
    ————————————————————————————-

    So now, the final question: “Doesn’t this shoot down fundamental principle behind the entire sedevacantist case?”
    But here, the answer is no.
    Most SSPX types, many sedevacantists, and even intelligent academics like Fr. hαɾɾιson assume that excommunication is the starting point for the sedevacantist argument, which they believe, goes something like this:
    Quote
    • Canon law imposes an automatic excommunication on a heretic.
    • Excommunication prevents a cleric from voting to elect someone to office, being elected to office himself, or remaining in office once he has become a public heretic.
    • Paul VI and his successors incurred this excommunication for public heresy.
    • Therefore, they were not true popes.
    Take away the possibility of excommunication with ¶34 of Pius XII’s Constitution (the anti-sede argument goes), and the sedevacantist argument disappears.
    But they misunderstand. Excommunication is a creation of ecclesiastical law, and it is not the starting point for the sedevacantist argument. In fact, it has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
    Rather, for sedevacantism the starting point is another principle entirely: that divine law prevents a heretic from becoming a true pope (or remaining one, if a pope embraces heresy during the course of his pontificate.) This principle comes straight from those sections of major pre-Vatican II commentaries on the Code of Canon Law that deal with election to papal office and the qualities required in the person elected.
    Here are a few quotes:
    Quote
    Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself… [T]hey must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See, which is the infallible teacher of the truth of the faith and the center of ecclesiastical unity.” (Maroto, Institutiones I.C. 2:784)
    Appointment to the Office of the Primacy. 1. What is required by divine law for this appointment… Also required for validity is that the one elected be a member of the Church; hence, heretics and apostates (at least public ones) are excluded.” (Coronata, Institutiones I.C. 1:312)
    “All those who are not impeded by divine law or by an invalidating ecclesiastical law are validly eligible [to be elected pope]. Wherefore, a male who enjoys use of reason sufficient to accept election and exercise jurisdiction, and who is a true member of the Church can be validly elected, even though he be only a layman. Excluded as incapable of valid election, however, are all women, children who have not yet arrived at the age of discretion, those afflicted with habitual insanity, heretics and schismatics.” (Wernz-Vidal, Jus Can. 2:415)
    Thus heresy is not a mere “ecclesiastical impediment” or censure of the type that Pius XII enumerated and suspended in paragraph 34 of Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis. It is instead an impediment of divine law which Pius XII did not suspend — and indeed could not have suspended, precisely because it is one of divine law.
    .
    IV. SUMMARY: APPLES AND ORANGES
    ————————————————————————

    Paragraph 34 of Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis suspends the effects of censures (excommunication, suspension, interdict) and other ecclesiastical impediments (e.g., infamy of law) for cardinals who are electing a pope and for the cardinal they finally elect. Thus, a cardinal who had incurred an excommunication prior to his election as pope would nevertheless be validly elected.
    This law concerns only impediments of ecclesiastical law, however. As such, it cannot be invoked as an argument against sedevacantism, which is based on the teaching of pre-Vatican II canonists that heresy is an impediment of divine law to receiving the papacy.
    Anti-sedevacantist controversialists should therefore stop recycling arguments based on the passage in question. It has nothing to do with the position they oppose.



    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #263 on: January 07, 2023, 07:23:52 AM »
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  • Called it.  Father Cekada does not mean they legitimately held the office but merely that any impediments to legitimate election from CANON law were lifted, but the entire point of Bellarmine's thesis (to which Father Cekada adheres) is that heretics are impeded by DIVINE law from holding the office.  If the Canon Law that says only men could be elected to the papacy were lifted, a woman who somehow got elected would be disqualified by divine law.


    Thank you!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #264 on: January 07, 2023, 07:33:22 AM »
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  • Another question that remains unanswered is: Which Divine Law?

    Stubborn, you don’t even realize it, but you have in essence become your own pope. YOU decide what is Catholic or not. What is divine law or not. Which Council decrees to adhere to and which ones to disregard. After all, according to you, Church Councils are not infallible. You decide if pope or a supposed pope’s teaching’s should be followed or not. You make the rules, not the Church and certainly not the pope.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #265 on: January 07, 2023, 07:40:49 AM »
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  • Another question that remains unanswered is: Which Divine Law?

    You've been arguing against sedevacantism for how long and you aren't aware of what +Bellarmine wrote about this?

    Divine Law that someone who is not a member of the Church cannot be its head (I urge you to look up +Bellarmne).  Other Divine Law includes that a woman cannot be elected, and that to fully exercise the office one has to be a bishop, etc.  Even if there were no Canon Law against a female being elect it, Divine Law would render the election of a woman null and void.

    See, your problem is that you falsely follow the Wathenian error that the character of Baptism suffices for membership in the Church, that all the baptized are members of the Church.  This is an opinion that was held by exactly one guy, but Pius XII put the nail into the coffin when he taught clearly that heretics and schismatics cease to be members of the Church.

    Heck, including all the baptized in the Church of Christ is one of the CHIEF errors of Vatican II and renders the "Feeneyism" of Wathen meaningless.  While Wathen holds that only the baptized can be saved, he also holds the opinion that ALL the baptized are inside the Church.

    Now the Salza & Siscoe position is that in order to be a heretic or schismatic, you have to be declared as such by the Church, but even they would grant that one someone becomes a heretic or schismatic (by this legalistic means), they would cease to be members of the Church.

    You and Father Wathen stand alone on this untenable opinion.  I've always found it strange how much you slavishly follow Wathen and constantly cite him as if he were the Magisterium and your rule of faith, which is understandable for you because you reject the actual Magisterium as your rule of faith.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #266 on: January 07, 2023, 07:43:59 AM »
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  • Question: That would apply to John XXIII then? He would have been properly elected (putting aside any Siri issues) even if a Mason?


    Yes, since Pope Pius XII explicitly lifted any impediments of Canon Law from disqualifying anyone from being legitimately elected, and excommunication on account of Masonry is one such law.

    See, I hold that Roncalli was impeded by the fact that Siri was the legitimate Pope, Gregory XVII.  Siri was elected, accepted, took the name Gregory XVII, but then was threatened / blackmailed to step down.  Canon Law explicitly states that resignations made under grave duress are invalid.  IMO, that is why they waited for Siri to accept the election (at which point, as per Pius XII, he immediately became the pope) to threaten him.  They could have threatened him beforehand.  But they needed Siri to be the legitimate Pope, because they knew that if they got their man (Roncalli) legitimately elected, the Holy Ghost would prevent him (and his successors) from wrecking the Church, due to the promises of Our Lord regarding the Papal Office.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #267 on: January 07, 2023, 07:48:34 AM »
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  • Yes, since Pope Pius XII explicitly lifted any impediments of Canon Law from disqualifying anyone from being legitimately elected, and excommunication on account of Masonry is one such law.

    Lad,

    Thank you. I'm trying to think through this.

    So then, that would mean that it is possible for one to retain the Catholic faith at the same time that one is under excommunication for being a Mason - since it is necessary to have the Catholic faith to be pope, and excommunication for being a Mason doesn't bar one?

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #268 on: January 07, 2023, 07:50:28 AM »
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  • Yes, since Pope Pius XII explicitly lifted any impediments of Canon Law from disqualifying anyone from being legitimately elected, and excommunication on account of Masonry is one such law.

    See, I hold that Roncalli was impeded by the fact that Siri was the legitimate Pope, Gregory XVII.  Siri was elected, accepted, took the name Gregory XVII, but then was threatened / blackmailed to step down.  Canon Law explicitly states that resignations made under grave duress are invalid.  IMO, that is why they waited for Siri to accept the election (at which point, as per Pius XII, he immediately became the pope) to threaten him.  They could have threatened him beforehand.  But they needed Siri to be the legitimate Pope, because they knew that if they got their man (Roncalli) legitimately elected, the Holy Ghost would prevent him (and his successors) from wrecking the Church, due to the promises of Our Lord regarding the Papal Office.

    Very interesting theory, I think it’s far fetched, but it is a possibility.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #269 on: January 07, 2023, 07:51:10 AM »
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  • Question: That would apply to John XXIII then? He would have been properly elected (putting aside any Siri issues) even if a Mason?


    So Stubborn cited Pope Pius XII:
    Quote
    Pope Pius XII's Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis December 8, 1945:
    "34. No Cardinal can in any way be excluded from the active and passive election of the
    Supreme Pontiff on the pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict, or
    other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever; We, in fact, suspend these censures only for the
    effect of an election of this sort; they will remain in their own force in other circuмstances."

    So this means that the excommunication is not completely lifted, but only for the purpose of the election itself, but other consequences of the excommunication would remain, i.e. that they would be forbidden from, say, offering Mass, etc.

    What's interesting about this law is that it's worded very narrowly to apply to "Cardinals", but what if the conclave had voted for a non-Cardinal, which although unlikely is technically possible?  In that case, this law would NOT have applied and a bishop or priest thus elected and who had been excommunicated, would not have been legitimately elected.