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Author Topic: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?  (Read 1851 times)

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Online AMDGJMJ

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Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2023, 11:22:28 AM »
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    • Part of my brother's response which is relevant in particular to including the sources for the "per saltum" etc.:

    "Leo XII treats of this as something of an unsettled question in his response to Anglican ordinations, Apostolicae Curae, but even so it seems reasonable to err on the side of caution.


    "It is not relevant to examine here whether the episcopate be a completion of the priesthood, or an order distinct from it; or whether, when bestowed, as they say per saltum, on one who is not a priest, it has or has not its effect. But the episcopate undoubtedly, by the institution of Christ, most truly belongs to the Sacrament of Order and constitutes the sacerdotium in the highest degree, namely, that which by the teaching of the Holy Fathers and our liturgical customs is called the Summum sacerdotium sacri ministerii summa.(Apostilicae Curae S.28)"

    The position from the supplementum to the Summa Theologiae is a little stronger in favor of the fact that the case of the elevation of bishops is different from every other order: "One order does not depend on a preceding order as regards the validity of the sacrament. But the episcopal power depends on the priestly power, since no one can receive the episcopal power unless he have previously the priestly power. Therefore, the episcopate is not an order." (ST III Sup. Q.40 A.5 Sed Contra)"
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    Offline biblioc

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #16 on: January 10, 2023, 12:29:57 PM »
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    • Finally we got the Beef! Great Job! And thanks for helping me out. Appreciate it a lot!
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    Offline biblioc

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #17 on: January 10, 2023, 12:40:07 PM »
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    • I want to note here that Saint Thomas speaks of minor orders and the Bishopric....however, how can one be a priest without being before a deacon? Remember, Saint Thomas states the following:

      I answer that, It is not necessary for the higher orders that one should have received the minor orders, because their respective powers are distinct, and one, considered in its essentials, does not require another in the same subject. Hence even in the early Church some were ordained priests without having previously received the lower orders and yet they could do all that the lower orders could, because the lower power is comprised in the higher, even as sense in understanding, and dukedom in kingdom. Afterwards, however, it was decided by the legislation of the Church that no one should present himself to the higher orders who had not previously humbled himself in the lower offices. And hence it is that according to the Canons (Decretals) those who are ordained without receiving a preceding order are not reordained, but receive what was lacking to them of the preceding order.
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    Offline biblioc

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #18 on: January 10, 2023, 12:48:34 PM »
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    • Nowhere in Saint Thomas Aquinas as I have looked in to it, and, correct if I am wrong, does he say that one can be a priest without being a deacon first. However, he does say that one can be a priest without having received the minor orders....which is not a higher order like the three in question: deacon, priest, and bishop.

    Back to it, where's the beef?
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    Online AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #19 on: January 10, 2023, 03:19:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: biblioc on January 10, 2023, 12:29:57 PM
    Finally we got the Beef! Great Job! And thanks for helping me out. Appreciate it a lot!
    You are welcome.
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    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Online AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #20 on: January 10, 2023, 03:22:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: biblioc on January 10, 2023, 12:48:34 PM
    Nowhere in Saint Thomas Aquinas as I have looked in to it, and, correct if I am wrong, does he say that one can be a priest without being a deacon first. However, he does say that one can be a priest without having received the minor orders....which is not a higher order like the three in question: deacon, priest, and bishop.

    Back to it, where's the beef?
    The way I understand what he wrote was that the minor orders aren't necessary for valid progression to the next order (except by church law) but that each of the major orders are always necessary before preceding to the next sacred order for sale of surety of validity.

    Interesting fact:

    According to the Catechism of the Council of Trent the subdeaconate is one of the major orders (see pictures from thread I previously posted)...

    I remember hearing from a traditional Catholic priest that before a man is ordained in the subdeaconate he has to make a vow to never marry. 
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    Offline biblioc

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #21 on: January 10, 2023, 03:43:08 PM »
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    • I understand, thanks for the tips though. I'm still stuck on this there must be some Papal decree or Council or Saint that spoke on this matter.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #22 on: January 10, 2023, 04:16:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: biblioc on January 10, 2023, 10:28:02 AM
    Again, where's the beef?

    Where is the Docuмentation supporting your claims?

    I suggest that the beef is between your ears.

    You can go ahead and doubt all priests who had been condtionally ordained and stay home alone.  That's your business.  Everyone else accepts what has always been the Church's practice, to consider those ordained directly to the priesthood to be valid priests.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #23 on: January 10, 2023, 04:21:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marcellinus on January 10, 2023, 06:49:11 AM
    It is not certain that a man must be ordained a priest before being consecrated a bishop.  There are many theologians who have taught that consecration "per saltum" is valid.

    The matter has not been fully decided by the Church.

    True, but given that only some hold that it's valid, in the practical order, the matter is considered doubtful.  Heck, some even hold that a priest can ordain another priest, but that too is doubtful.

    I suspect that a bishop could certainly validly consecrate a non-priest as a bishop ... if the Sacramental form permitted it, but I believe the way the Latin Rite form is written, it would be dubious at best.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #24 on: January 10, 2023, 04:25:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on January 10, 2023, 10:44:42 AM
    I have actually had this almost exact conversation with one of my novus ordo brothers recently.

    I think that this is the Saint Thomas Aquinas Reference you are looking for from the Summa Theologica:

    It is not necessary for the higher orders that one should have received the minor orders, because their respective powers are distinct, and one, considered in its essentials, does not require another in the same subject. Hence even in the early Church some were ordained priests without having previously received the lower orders and yet they could do all that the lower orders could, because the lower power is comprised in the higher, even as sense in understanding, and dukedom in kingdom. Afterwards, however, it was decided by the legislation of the Church that no one should present himself to the higher orders who had not previously humbled himself in the lower offices. And hence it is that according to the Canons (Decretals) those who are ordained without receiving a preceding order are not reordained, but receive what was lacking to them of the preceding order."

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q35.A5

    From what I understand...  Each of the major orders was always required in sequence and Saint Thomas is saying that eventually the Church made the minor orders a rule first even though not necessary for validity.

    I bet that's just a poor translation.  I imagine he's saying the higher orders vs. the lower orders (not "Minor" Orders in the strict sense).  In fact, a couple sentences in, it switches to using the term "lower" orders.

    So, here:
    Quote
    Hence even in the early Church some were ordained priests without having previously received the lower orders and yet they could do all that the lower orders could, because the lower power is comprised in the higher, even as sense in understanding, and dukedom in kingdom.

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    Offline biblioc

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #25 on: January 10, 2023, 04:26:04 PM »
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    • So your saying that Francis by Apostolic Supreme is not the Pope? How dare you! Ungrateful. Home Alone wasn't that a movie?
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    Offline biblioc

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #26 on: January 10, 2023, 04:28:18 PM »
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    • A nice little popcorn and movie Flick Home Alone would not be such a bad idea! What is your problem dude? ?
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    Offline biblioc

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    Re: Deacon , Priest , and Bishop?
    « Reply #27 on: January 10, 2023, 04:31:21 PM »
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    • Ladislaus

    The most negative, mean, hurtful people are - well - you know - YOU! What is your problem? So many Traditionalists are utterly nauseating and so self-righteous! Remember that song by Bon Jonvi - well - You Give Love (God) a bad name! Get a life! And leave me alone!
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