Author Topic: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever? (Read 9479 times)

songbird · « **Reply #60 on:** July 28, 2020, 05:58:48 PM »

Saying the new order heretical mass is enough for me to say, the whole new order is shot! That is the total destruction of the "Deposits of Faith"!

Is this pope against Faith and Morals? Absolutely! Any so-called clergy who does as well, is against The Deposits of Faith! That is heretical at its worst! Demonic!

I don't believe we have to so deeply search. God did not make us as such. His Son taught in parables easy to understand that a wolf in sheeps clothing kills!

A tree that is not good, will not put out good fruit. You WILL know them by their fruits.

Stanley N · « **Reply #61 on:** July 28, 2020, 07:21:51 PM »

Quote from: Struthio on July 28, 2020, 02:44:31 PM

DH is against common sense. DH claims that there is a God-given right to act against God-given law. The basic principle of natural right is: Do what's good, omit what's bad. Yet DH claims that there is a natural right to do what's bad (worship idols).

Is that what DH says?

"Therefore it leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ."

Recall you brought up DH as an example of an allegedly heretical teaching to which all bishops allegedly adhere. It's probably the strongest argument for sedevacantism. (Certainly better than the N.O. because the latin Roman mass was not forbidden, and the eastern churches are also available.) But even if someone thought there seemed to be a contradiction between DH and the past, one could suspend judgment rather than separate from the hierarchy.

LeDeg · « **Reply #62 on:** July 28, 2020, 07:41:32 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on July 28, 2020, 05:45:42 AM

The reason you do not see any difference LeDeg, is because your conclusion in and of itself being improper, bespeaks of no difference.

As my sig says: The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

As such, the question should be;
At what point may we disobey God in order to obey the pope, who is a man? 60 years? 100 years? Or 500 years? The answer is of course, never.

The whole sede mindset, their lex credendi, hinges on the idea that the pope is supposed to be something almost celestial, at least something more than a man who is incapable of doing what man is capable of doing - combined with the idea that their knowledge of his sins (of heresy, apostasy etc.) authorizes and qualifies them to decide to dethrone him, to deprive him of his office, which is precisely what they have decided to do. They believe to do this is true, even courageous Catholicism.

As faithful Catholics in regards to the pope, it is our duty to pray daily for the pope, always has been, always will be. As recent history proves, Catholics can keep the faith and grow in it, and there is nothing to stop us from even becoming great saints, even though the popes and hierarchy are blatantly heretical, provided that through it all we adhere to the highest principle in the Church. It really is not at all complicated.

*That* is the Church's indefectibility working.

Stubborn, have not the popes after Vatican I and before Vatican II taught there can be no disagreement with the pope?
"Wherefore, let the faithful also be on their guard against the overrated independence of private judgment and that false autonomy of human reason. For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circuмstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty. Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord."
(Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Casti Connubii, n. 104)

"All who defend the faith should aim to implant deeply in your faithful people the virtues of piety, veneration, and respect for this supreme See of Peter. Let the faithful recall the fact that Peter, Prince of Apostles is alive here and rules in his successors, and that his office does not fail even in an unworthy heir. Let them recall that Christ the Lord placed the impregnable foundation of his Church on this See of Peter [Mt 16:18] and gave to Peter himself the keys of the kingdom of Heaven [Mt 16:19]. Christ then prayed that his faith would not fail, and commanded Peter to strengthen his brothers in the faith [Lk 22:32]. Consequently the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, holds a primacy over the whole world and is the true Vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church and father and teacher of all Christians."
"Indeed one simple way to keep men professing Catholic truth is to maintain their communion with and obedience to the Roman Pontiff. For it is impossible for a man ever to reject any portion of the Catholic faith without abandoning the authority of the Roman Church. In this authority, the unalterable teaching office of this faith lives on. It was set up by the divine Redeemer and, consequently, the tradition from the Apostles has always been preserved. So it has been a common characteristic both of the ancient heretics and of the more recent Protestants — whose disunity in all their other tenets is so great — to attack the authority of the Apostolic See. But never at any time were they able by any artifice or exertion to make this See tolerate even a single one of their errors."
(Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Nostis et Nobiscuм, nn. 16-17)
"This chair [of Peter] is the center of Catholic truth and unity, that is, the head, mother, and teacher of all the Churches to which all honor and obedience must be offered. Every church must agree with it because of its greater preeminence — that is, those people who are in all respects faithful…."
"Now you know well that the most deadly foes of the Catholic religion have always waged a fierce war, but without success, against this Chair; they are by no means ignorant of the fact that religion itself can never totter and fall while this Chair remains intact, the Chair which rests on the rock which the proud gates of hell cannot overthrow and in which there is the whole and perfect solidity of the Christian religion. Therefore, because of your special faith in the Church and special piety toward the same Chair of Peter, We exhort you to direct your constant efforts so that the faithful people of France may avoid the crafty deceptions and errors of these plotters and develop a more filial affection and obedience to this Apostolic See. Be vigilant in act and word, so that the faithful may grow in love for this Holy See, venerate it, and accept it with complete obedience; they should execute whatever the See itself teaches, determines, and decrees."
(Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Inter Multiplices, nn. 1,7)

"In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy. Nay, further, it is not enough sincerely and firmly to assent to doctrines which, though not defined by any solemn pronouncement of the Church, are by her proposed to belief, as divinely revealed, in her common and universal teaching, and which the [First] Vatican Council declared are to be believed “with Catholic and divine faith.” But this likewise must be reckoned amongst the duties of Christians, that they allow themselves to be ruled and directed by the authority and leadership of bishops, and, above all, of the Apostolic See."
"And how fitting it is that this should be so any one can easily perceive. For the things contained in the divine oracles have reference to God in part, and in part to man, and to whatever is necessary for the attainment of his eternal salvation. Now, both these, that is to say, what we are bound to believe and what we are obliged to do, are laid down, as we have stated, by the Church using her divine right, and in the Church by the supreme Pontiff."
"Wherefore it belongs to the Pope to judge authoritatively what things the sacred oracles contain, as well as what doctrines are in harmony, and what in disagreement, with them; and also, for the same reason, to show forth what things are to be accepted as right, and what to be rejected as worthless; what it is necessary to do and what to avoid doing, in order to attain eternal salvation. For, otherwise, there would be no sure interpreter of the commands of God, nor would there be any safe guide showing man the way he should live."
(Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae, n. 24)

I am failing to see where the line is for when and where the Church just continues on and just ignores what the claimants to the chair of St Peter are saying and doing. Where am I wrong?

LeDeg · « **Reply #63 on:** July 28, 2020, 07:46:50 PM »

An interesting article by Msgr. Fenton.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm

Struthio · « **Reply #64 on:** July 28, 2020, 08:42:17 PM »

Quote from: Stanley N on July 28, 2020, 07:21:51 PM

Quote from: Struthio
Yet DH claims that there is a natural right to do what's bad (worship idols).

Is that what DH says?

Yes, DH says that the alleged right to religious freedom is a natural right:

Quote from: DH 2

The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.

An alleged right based on the alleged nature of man, and known by "reason itself".

Quote from: Stanley N on July 28, 2020, 07:21:51 PM

"Therefore it leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ."

That's simply a damn bloody lie. The "traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ" is not left untouched, when these damn heretics say that societies have a duty to provide for religious freedom for all.

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever? (Read 9479 times)

songbird

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?

Stanley N

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?

LeDeg

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?

LeDeg

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?

Struthio

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?