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Author Topic: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei  (Read 8709 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2019, 09:42:48 AM »
The use of NFP, may not alter the actual act, but it does follow from a wish to exert control, rather than submit.

Yes, this "not intrinsically evil" argument is complete nonsense.  Killing another person is not intrinsically evil either ... since it can be done with a justifying reason (e.g. in self defense).  If it were intrinsically evil, then no reason could justify it.  Similarly, abstaining from marital relations at any given time is not intrinsically evil.  But the motive for abstinence is what informs the morality of the act.  If one abstains without sufficient cause and in doing so is failing to render the marital debt, then it can be sinful.  Similarly, if the REASON that one is abstaining is so that one can enjoy the secondary ends of marriage (and or, to be blunt, just experience pleasure) ... while at the same time attempting to exclude the primary end, then that is a clear subversion of the primary end of marriage to the secondary ... something that was explicitly condemned as sinful by Pope Pius XI in his Encyclical.  Now an Encyclical teaching authoritatively to the Universal Church far outweighs a rambling speculative speech delivered by Pius XII to a group of midwives.  For all we know, Pius XII is still in Purgatory for no other reason than the floodgates of sin he unleashed by paying lip service to NFP.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2019, 09:44:23 AM »
Lad, it is fitting that you should bring up that argument now, since we are nearly at the one year anniversary of me having argued against you that Casti Connubii contains no such denouncement.  Has a year been long enough for you to develop a response to my criticism? :)

What CC teaches is right there in black and white.  It is sinful to subordinate the primary end to the secondary.  If attempting to eliminate the primary while enjoying the secondary is not subordination, than nothing is.

You falsely claimed that SUBordination is not in the original text, except that it is.  "due/necessary ordering toward the primary end".  That is what phrase means that, being the secondary end, it must be ordered to the primary end ... correctly and appropriately translated in approved translations as subordinated.  That was the big criticism of Vatican II from the conservative Fathers group, that V2 tried to make the primary and secondary ends of marriage to be co-primary ends, whereas Traditional Catholic theology has always taught that the secondary were SUBordinate to the primary.  And I explained the context of your completely out-of-context use of the Holy Office ruling.  That had nothing to do with any principled acceptance of NFP whatsoever.  In fact, the language backs up the Church's disapproval of NFP.

I already responded to you, including one long multiple-paragraph post and several smaller posts addressing each one of your false points.  I clearly addressed how your wore purposely conflating the two separate principles outlined by Pius XI, claiming that a mere physical completion of the act in the natural way was in fact identical to having the proper motive regarding the ends of the act ... which is utterly absurd and preposterous.  You make now allowance whatsoever for the distinction between the material act and the formal motive behind it, which would be rejected by all Catholic theologians.  This merely shows your desperation in attempting to justify this sinful activity.  Please be advised that by promoting this sinful activity, you yourself will be judged by God.


Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 09:53:19 AM »
That's not correct.  What is not intrinsically evil is abstaining from marital relations.  But the formal motive is what makes it evil ... and what turns mere abstinence into NFP.  Evil is evil, and sin is sin.  If someone abstains only during a certain time in order to avoid conception, the formal intent there is to subordinate the primary ends of marriage to the secondary ... which Pope Pius XI denounced as sinful in his encyclical Casti Conubii.
What is not intrinsically evil is abstaining from marital relations.

That is it in a nutshell if it means by doing nothing one does not sin.

If someone abstains only during a certain time in order to avoid conception, the formal intent there is to subordinate the primary ends of marriage to the secondary

Yep!

Where there is serious illness on the part of the wife for example, then the husband can choose to abstain til she recovers without committing any sin of conscupiscence or because he wanted to limit the family for selfish reasons.

Contraception on the other hand is an outright abortifacient in many cases.   NFP is not that at all.

Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2019, 09:55:38 AM »
What CC teaches is right there in black and white.  It is sinful to subordinate the primary end to the secondary.  If attempting to eliminate the primary while enjoying the secondary is not subordination, than nothing is.
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Here, let me refresh your memory: https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/questions-on-sex-and-specifically-the-role-of-procreation/msg630779/#msg630779
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My position is that the subordination of ends and preservation of the nature of the act are not separable, but that if the act is preserved (i.e., performed without contraceptive intervention) the ends are ipso facto subordinated.  I base this reading on the text itself: in Latin and in the Denzinger/DeFerrari translation to English, and the commentary on the encyclical provided by its drafter, Fr. Vermeersch, who supports the way that I understand it rather than the way that you understand it.
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Your position-- that there is a distinction between the preservation of the act and the ordering of ends-- depends entirely on the integrity of the Pieran Press translation of Casti Connubii from the 1990s, which integrity I have directly challenged, and which challenge you have never responded to (except by merely re-asserting the apparent "obviousness" of the matter).

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2019, 10:01:35 AM »
My position is that the subordination of ends and preservation of the nature of the act are not separable, but that if the act is preserved (i.e., performed without contraceptive intervention) the ends are ipso facto subordinated.

And this is, to be blunt, one of the most absurd and ridiculous "positions" I have ever read.  You are deliberately and dishonestly conflating the formal motive of the action with the objective action itself.  This shows your desperation to justify this sinful activity, and you commit grave sin by promoting grave sin publicly.  ALL of the Catholic moral theology regarding human sɛҳuąƖity is related to the ends of marriage, the primary and the secondary, and the need for these to be in proper order.  This goes all the way back to the Church Fathers, and you're throwing that all out claiming that there's nothing to it so long as the act is performed naturally, then motives have absolutely nothing to do with it.  You're undermining all of Catholic moral theology by making this claim, and you're making yourself into a fool.  You also distort Vermeersch.  He was writing that the action is not objectively vitiated by the formal end, which is nothing more than making a distinction between principle #1 (the objective natural force of the act) and #2 (the formal intent).  EVERY moral theological approach to a given question takes into account not only the intrinsic nature of the act but also of the formal motive behind the act.  Acts can be objectively good or neutral but vitiated by intention, or objectively bad but not sinful due to intention.  So there's a distinction between the objective nature of the act and its morality due to the formal motive, which is why Vermeersch says "necessarily".

Not to mention, you may want to think again before publicly encouraging grave sin ... since with every post you are endangering your eternal salvation.