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Author Topic: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation  (Read 3890 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2018, 04:56:44 PM »
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  • Agree. I assumed by periodic he meant a time period like 1-2 months (ie during Lent).  NFP isn’t periodic, it’s scheduled, (this week, but not that week) which is why it’s wrong.  


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #31 on: October 16, 2018, 09:12:51 PM »
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  • Pius XII was a door opener to Vatican II, the new mass and much more, I do not use him as a source for anything. If what you say is true, there must be other popes in the prior 1900+ years for you to quote. Please continue without Pius XII.
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    The Holy Office of Pope Pius IX (before Vatican I), the Holy Office of Pope Pius XI (who is responsible for Casti Conubii) both affirmed the morality of periodic continence.  As has every theologian who's ever treated the issue.  If you have a problem with Pope Pius XII over it you need to take it up with a hundred years worth of popes before him, including all the popes who didn't "correct" what you seem to regard as papal error, and who also failed to rebuke all of the theologians who agreed.  The Church has affirmed the lawfulness of periodic continence since 1854.  That's 1854.  It's not a novelty, despite so many ill-informed traditionalists thinking otherwise.
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #32 on: October 16, 2018, 09:34:12 PM »
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  • #1) subjugated is the wrong word (it's subordinated)
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    If you're talking about the language of Casti Conubii, "subordinated" appears in the Pieran Press compilation of papal encyclicals (edited by Mrs. Curan, I believe, circa 1990).  The passage you're referring to is probably this one, and this translation:

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    [Sterile relations are intrinsically lawful because] in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved. (CC §59, link to Pieran Press translation)

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    It sounds as though you are reading this as though subordination of ends is distinct from the preservation of the intrinsic nature of the act.  However, this translation, while not awful, suffers when compared to the original Latin:
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    ...dummodo salva semper sit intrinseca illius actus natura ideoque eius ad primarium finem debita ordinatio (AAS 22, 539)
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    A closer literal translation is what we find in Defararri in Denzinger, which is what preconciliar theologians relied on.  The difference is subtle but significant:
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    [Sterile relations are intrinsically lawful because] in matrimony itself, as in the practice of the conjugal right, secondary ends are also considered, such as mutual aid, the cultivation of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence, which spouses are by no means forbidden to attempt, provided the intrinsic nature of that act is preserved, and so its due ordering is towards its primary end. (CC §59, Denzinger translation)
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    Neither the Latin nor the commonly used English translation makes the distinction between subordination and the preservation of the marital act's nature; rather, since the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved, the ends are duly ordered.  If there is doubt on this point, consult Fr. Vermeersch who ghost-wrote Casti Conubii:
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    As long as the act takes place normally it remains objectively directed toward its primary end, which is generation; and since, according to the maxim that the purpose of the law is not within the matter of the law (finis legis non cadit sub legem), there is no obligation, while observing the law, to intend the end for which it was promulgated, it follows that the act is not necessarily vitiated by deliberately choosing a certain time with the intention of avoiding conception. (What is Marriage? A Catechism arranged According to the Encyclical Casti Connubii, 1932, p. 44, emphasis added)
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    Barely two years after he wrote Casti Conubii, Pope Pius XI affirmed the (1880) Holy Office rulings of Pope Leo XIII affirming the morality of periodic continence.  This would be a very curious act of approval if he meant what you think he means.
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    Now, of course the primary ends must be subordinated to the secondary ends-- we agree on this.  My point is that Casti Conubii regards this subordination as manifest when the act occurs naturally.  There is no distinction to be had between the intrinsic preservation of the act and the ordering of ends.  They are one and the same.  If the ends are properly ordered, it means the act is preserved, and if the act is preserved, it means the ends are ordered.
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    In deliberate "periodic" abstinence, the formal intent is to enjoy the secondary ends of marital relations while precluding the primary.  Consequently, the secondary ends of marriage become the primary end.

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    I think you are skipping over the crucial distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic.  Casti Conubii, when it teaches on marital relations, concerns itself very squarely with what is intrinsic to the act.  Motives, intentions, and so forth are all extrinsic.  Even if one is motivated insufficiently (for lawful use of periodic continence), the sin committed is not one against nature.  That would be like saying if two couples had relations during fertile periods but one of them didn't want anymore children, that person sins against nature.  I'm sure you realize that would be a silly thing to argue.  Intentions, even if deplorable, have no bearing on intrinsics, nor could they.  As to your comment about gratuitous assertions viz. periodic continence not being contraception, the assertions have not been gratuitous.  Many reasons have been given. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #33 on: October 17, 2018, 01:44:24 PM »
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  • .
    The Holy Office of Pope Pius IX (before Vatican I), the Holy Office of Pope Pius XI (who is responsible for Casti Conubii) both affirmed the morality of periodic continence.  As has every theologian who's ever treated the issue.  If you have a problem with Pope Pius XII over it you need to take it up with a hundred years worth of popes before him, including all the popes who didn't "correct" what you seem to regard as papal error, and who also failed to rebuke all of the theologians who agreed.  The Church has affirmed the lawfulness of periodic continence since 1854.  That's 1854.  It's not a novelty, despite so many ill-informed traditionalists thinking otherwise.
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    Let's speak so people can understand clearly. What is periodic continence? What does it entail, what does one do? We are talking about NFP here no? What does "the morality of periodic continence" have to do with NFP? 
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #34 on: October 17, 2018, 02:19:21 PM »
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  • Periodic Continence is the term used in the theological literature in pre-conciliar times to describe what is also called "rhythm" in secular literature (the term "rhythm" is used in some theological literature, too) and which has become known more popularly, especially since Vatican II, as "NFP."  I am sorry if that was unclear, although I did draw attention to the meaning of the term ("periodic continence") in an earlier post.
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    In terms of theoretical applications, there is no difference between periodic continence, rhythm, and NFP.  All indicate the practice of abstaining from marital relations except during times of sterility.
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    While there is no intrinsic difference in the meaning of these three terms, there is quite a bit of accidental difference.  NFP, as popularly conceived, describes the wholesale and indiscriminate (and even mandatory) teaching of periodic continence to prospective married couples, which is almost completely the opposite of the policy set by the Holy Office under Pope Pius XII, policies which were also set at diocesan levels and which forbade periodic continence from being taught publicly or favorably.  It (periodic continence) was the sort of thing that could be used on a case by case basis, with the knowledge and approval of one's pastor, who would be able to assess whether or not the couple's motives and reasons were serious enough to suspend them from the obligation to procreate.  
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    I have no defense, nor any interest in offering any defense, for this gross abuse the Novus Ordo practices.  However, I have quite a bit of interest in defending all of the popes of the last hundred years, dating back to Pius IX, who all affirmed the lawfulness of periodic continence, as well as the popes who supervised the theologians who all taught that it was lawful.
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    I like to use the term periodic continence because a) that is it's proper name if we are to value tradition over novelty and b) it serves as a useful lingual tool to distinguish it from "NFP" since NFP is a term which elicits quite a few knee-jerk reactions which often prove difficult to overcome in these discussions.
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    I hope that clarifies some things for you.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #35 on: October 17, 2018, 05:41:46 PM »
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  • NFP is very precise and if correctly used, the method is advertised to be as good as the pill. They say today that one is still open to life if they use NFP, but since it works as good as the pill, one could say the same about the pill, it is a big lie.

    The rhythm method on the other hand was a 50/50 affair at best. Anyone in danger of death by pregnancy that used the rhythm method was really taking a chance. I’d call them nuts.

    Two different animals.
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    Offline SusanneT

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #36 on: October 17, 2018, 06:38:12 PM »
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  • As one who has practiced the sin of NFP in the past I challenge anyone who goes to the trouble of practicing it, in its increasingly scientific and technical forms to say in all conscience that they are in their hearts ‘open to life’ and that in the breaks in ‘periodic continence’ that the union between husband and wife is as God designed it !

    No Christian wife and certainly no woman who calls herself a traditionalist Catholic can practice birth control, natural or otherwise without being aware that she is in sin.  In marriage we surrender our womb to God. 


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #37 on: October 18, 2018, 10:10:02 AM »
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  • Both of you have brought up openness to life, and I must confess to having no idea what this actually means.  From Pius IX to Pius XII (that's a hundred years of papal teachings and theological explication on the issue) "openness to life" is never listed as a criteria for the lawful practice of periodic continence.  It's a term that was introduced by Paul VI.  I think at best it's fluff, at worst it's sentimental double speak.  It's what you get when you abandon Thomism, objectivism, and the natural law.  But perhaps one of you can better define and develop the term to make a case around it.  Note that it'll be a case leveraging ideas introduced by the Novus Ordo against the teachings of orthodox popes and theologians from 1854-1958.  So good luck :)
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #38 on: October 18, 2018, 10:46:57 AM »
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  • Right, most people who practice NFP, which has a high rate of success (like 99%) tell themselves, "Ok, God, I'm trying not to have children, but if you send me one i'll accept it."  ...This helps to silence their conscience on the matter.

    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #39 on: October 18, 2018, 11:05:50 AM »
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  • .
    There are no exclusions or exceptions to negative precepts.  Negative precepts are, as the name implies, precepts which instruct you not to do something.  The proscription against sinning against the natural law (which is what contraception is) is not something that can ever be excused from, just as it can never be excused to sodomize, etc.  The non-excluding nature of negative precepts is a very old principle, probably most popularized by Aquinas.  It is crucial to moral philosophy in general.  
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    But what is crucial in the discussion over periodic continence is that it (having sterile relations) simply isn't against the natural law.  So it isn't included in the types of behaviors which would be condemned by Casti Conubii ("the pill", condoms, etc.).  The marital act itself is conducted in the natural way which is what counts for purposes of evaluating its intrinsics, and intrinsics are what Pope Pius XI is talking about in Casti Conubii.  There is no negative precept against periodic continence.  What one is being excused from in the case of periodic continence is not the negative precept against contraception, but the positive precept to procreate.  Positive precepts are distinguished from negative ones in that they command you to do something.  E.g. "go to mass on Sundays."  The nature of positive precepts is that they can, in principle, be dispensed with.  As Aquinas says, they bind always but not in all cases.  A serious enough reason can excuse someone from the duty to procreate ("be fruitful and multiply"), just as a serious enough reason can excuse someone from the duty to attend mass.
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    ETA: to be clear, you have the right conclusion (i.e., that periodic continence is lawful).  It's just the way that you're getting there that doesn't work.  It's not lawful because contraception is allowed in extreme situations, it's lawful (in brief) because it isn't contraception and because the duty to procreate can, for a sufficient reason, be dispensed from.
    About the "negative" aspect: what about the 5th commandment? Thou shalt not kill? It's a negative one, and yet we all know it has exceptions.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #40 on: October 18, 2018, 11:10:56 AM »
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  • About the "negative" aspect: what about the 5th commandment? Thou shalt not kill? It's a negative one, and yet we all know it has exceptions.
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    Not exactly.  "Thou shalt not kill" is really "Thou shalt not murder."  It has a more specific meaning than just generally not "killing."  It is lawful for an individual to kill in self defense, but as St. Thomas explains it by the principle of double effect, such a killing is simply not murder because there is no intent to murder in such a case, merely to defend.  If defense means inadvertently killing the person, that is OK-- it's not murder.  Murder, properly-called, (which is what the commandment concerns itself with), is never permissible, ever.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Disputaciones

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #41 on: October 18, 2018, 11:51:39 AM »
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  • .
    Not exactly.  "Thou shalt not kill" is really "Thou shalt not murder."  It has a more specific meaning than just generally not "killing."  It is lawful for an individual to kill in self defense, but as St. Thomas explains it by the principle of double effect, such a killing is simply not murder because there is no intent to murder in such a case, merely to defend.  If defense means inadvertently killing the person, that is OK-- it's not murder.  Murder, properly-called, (which is what the commandment concerns itself with), is never permissible, ever.
    Ohh yea, you're right. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #42 on: October 18, 2018, 12:41:10 PM »
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  • Right, most people who practice NFP, which has a high rate of success (like 99%) tell themselves, "Ok, God, I'm trying not to have children, but if you send me one i'll accept it."  ...This helps to silence their conscience on the matter.

    Yep.  And if my condom fails, then I won't abort the child begotten as a result.  So you can be "open to life" even with artificial contraception.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #43 on: October 18, 2018, 12:45:26 PM »
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  • I'm glad someone brought up killing vs. murder.

    In some circuмstances, killing can be morally justifiable and even morally required (to save the life of an innocent third party if possible).  This means that killing is not intrinsically evil.  It's the formal intent that determines the morality of the act.

    Lots of people argue for NFP by saying that it's not intrinsically evil to have marital relations during infertile periods.  This is true, but irrelevant.  When there's the formal intent to restrict relations to ONLY the fertile periods, there's a formal intent to preclude the primary end of marital relations.  So, like with killing, it's the formal intent that determines the morality of the act.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Questions on sex and specifically the role of procreation
    « Reply #44 on: October 18, 2018, 12:53:03 PM »
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  • I'm glad someone brought up killing vs. murder.

    In some circuмstances, killing can be morally justifiable and even morally required (to save the life of an innocent third party if possible).  This means that killing is not intrinsically evil.  It's the formal intent that determines the morality of the act.

    Lots of people argue for NFP by saying that it's not intrinsically evil to have marital relations during infertile periods.  This is true, but irrelevant.  When there's the formal intent to restrict relations to ONLY the fertile periods, there's a formal intent to preclude the primary end of marital relations.  So, like with killing, it's the formal intent that determines the morality of the act.
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    There's formal intent not to conceive, surely.  Which is in part one of the reasons the idea of periodic continence being lawful on the conditions that the unions are "open to life" seems so silly.  Again, "openness to life" is Paul VI's idea.  It's not found in Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius XI, or Pius XII-- all popes who affirmed the morality of periodic continence and who supervised a body of theologians who taught the same.  
    .
    But it's a logical leap to go from "formal intent not to conceive" to "it's contraception."  We have a formal intent not to conceive every time we're not having sex (i.e., there's nothing intrinsically wrong with not wanting to conceive).  Recall in my other reply to you I pointed out the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic, and how intentions are extrinsic while Casti Conubii is concerned very explicitly only with what is intrinsic to the act.  So are you still arguing that periodic continence is contraception, or are you arguing that it's sinful for a different reason?  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).