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Author Topic: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei  (Read 8704 times)

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Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2019, 10:07:26 AM »
And this is, to be blunt, one of the most absurd and ridiculous "positions" I have ever read.  You are deliberately and dishonestly conflating the formal motive of the action with the objective action itself.  This shows your desperation to justify this sinful activity, and you commit grave sin by promoting grave sin publicly.  ALL of the Catholic moral theology regarding human sɛҳuąƖity is related to the ends of marriage, the primary and the secondary, and the need for these to be in proper order.  This goes all the way back to the Church Fathers, and you're throwing that all out claiming that there's nothing to it so long as the act is performed naturally, then motives have absolutely nothing to do with it.  You're undermining all of Catholic moral theology by making this claim, and you're making yourself into a fool.
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You don't need to try harder to convince me or anyone else that you feel strongly about the issue, you need to try harder to convince me and others that we should believe Casti Connubii makes the distinction you say it does after I have made an argument to the contrary.  What are your (non-question begging and commensurately responsive) reasons for thinking this is the case?  Check the link I gave you if you need to refresh your memory.  Right now you're just picking up on the emotional hand wringing and zealous platitudes you left off with a year ago.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2019, 10:11:28 AM »
By way of analogy against the false principles of Mith, there's no such thing as a sin of gluttony ... except if one were to eat unnatural/undigestible objects.

Since putting food into my mouth is a natural action, so long as I put the food into my mouth, and it digests, and goes through my digestive tract in the natural matter, there's no such thing as the sin of gluttony.  I can stuff cake into my mouth for an hour straight, all the while yielding to the intense passion to keep consuming sweets, and there's no sin so long as I don't throw it all up.  That's ludicrous, and it's precisely what Mith is proposing in his desperation to condone the gravely sinful practice of NFP.


Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2019, 10:11:47 AM »
It is a matter of fact-- not opinion-- that the Holy Offices of Pope Pius IX (1853), Pope Leo XIII (1880), Pope Pius XI (1932), and of course Pope Pius XII, all taught that periodic continence can be lawful.  It is also a matter of fact-- not opinion-- that during that hundred year period (1853-Pius XII), theologians unanimously agreed on its intrinsic lawfulness (although they did disagree on some of the upstream principles and downstream applications).  It is also a matter of fact-- not opinion-- that theologians were never rebuked for believing it to be a lawful practice.
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Given the facts, I would agree that the Church infallibly teaches that periodic continence can be lawful to use.  The alternative is to suppose that a hundred years worth of popes and theologians universally erred on the matter.  Let's keep in mind who those popes are-- not just Pius XII (as it is so often ignorantly alleged), but Pope Pius IX and Pope Leo XIII.  Pope St. Pius X, a militant pope on moral and doctrinal matters, did not censure or rebuke theologians for teaching it.  Pope Pius XI is included among these popes as well (which should give anyone who thinks that Casti Connubii denies the lawfulness of periodic continence pause, since no sooner was the ink dry on that encyclical than did the same pope explicitly confirm its lawfulness via the Holy Office).  The scope of periodic continence being taught exceeds the scope of religious liberty being taught both in time and space.  
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Of course, it is one thing to simply reserve judgment on whether or not this amounts to infallible teaching; it is another thing altogether to accuse such orthodox men, over such a long period of time, as having taught grave or even heretical moral theology.  
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Importantly, I should point out that an expression like "the Church teaches periodic continence" should be understood to simply mean that the Church teaches it can be lawful to use.  The Novus Ordo seems by all accounts to teach something very different, they seem to teach that it ought to be used in some general away.  The Catholic Church has never taught that, she has merely taught that there is nothing intrinsically evil about it, and regularly warned that it is something that should be taken seriously, not taught (as a method) publicly or indiscriminately, and only used when there is a commensurate reason.
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Keep in mind that NFP did not exist when those popes talked about periodic continence. They were talking about the rhythm method, which works about 50% of the time, if that, while NFP is 99% effective like the pill. Two different animals.

Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2019, 10:12:47 AM »
Obviously there is nothing intrinsically evil about a married couple choosing to abstain, by mutual consent on any one occasion or over a period of time.  Indeed a considerate and Godly husband could reasonably be expected to abstain if his wife is immediately post partum, or ill etc.

But what is immoral is for them to choose to be intimate, but to do so (whether though timing, the use of contraception or through not completing the act as God ordained) with the deliberate intent, or in the hope, that they avoid the natural and Godly purpose of the act - that is procreation.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2019, 10:13:59 AM »
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You don't need to try harder to convince me or anyone else that you feel strongly about the issue, you need to try harder to convince me and others that we should believe Casti Connubii makes the distinction you say it does after I have made an argument to the contrary.  What are your (non-question begging and commensurately responsive) reasons for thinking this is the case?  Check the link I gave you if you need to refresh your memory.  Right now you're just picking up on the emotional hand wringing and zealous platitudes you left off with a year ago.
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I've clearly outline where you're wrong.  Repeatedly.  You simply ignore anything I have to post.  I admonish you once again for your public grave sin of promoting grave sin.