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Author Topic: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei  (Read 7172 times)

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Offline Mithrandylan

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Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2019, 10:07:26 AM »
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  • And this is, to be blunt, one of the most absurd and ridiculous "positions" I have ever read.  You are deliberately and dishonestly conflating the formal motive of the action with the objective action itself.  This shows your desperation to justify this sinful activity, and you commit grave sin by promoting grave sin publicly.  ALL of the Catholic moral theology regarding human sɛҳuąƖity is related to the ends of marriage, the primary and the secondary, and the need for these to be in proper order.  This goes all the way back to the Church Fathers, and you're throwing that all out claiming that there's nothing to it so long as the act is performed naturally, then motives have absolutely nothing to do with it.  You're undermining all of Catholic moral theology by making this claim, and you're making yourself into a fool.
    .
    You don't need to try harder to convince me or anyone else that you feel strongly about the issue, you need to try harder to convince me and others that we should believe Casti Connubii makes the distinction you say it does after I have made an argument to the contrary.  What are your (non-question begging and commensurately responsive) reasons for thinking this is the case?  Check the link I gave you if you need to refresh your memory.  Right now you're just picking up on the emotional hand wringing and zealous platitudes you left off with a year ago.
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #16 on: October 16, 2019, 10:11:28 AM »
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  • By way of analogy against the false principles of Mith, there's no such thing as a sin of gluttony ... except if one were to eat unnatural/undigestible objects.

    Since putting food into my mouth is a natural action, so long as I put the food into my mouth, and it digests, and goes through my digestive tract in the natural matter, there's no such thing as the sin of gluttony.  I can stuff cake into my mouth for an hour straight, all the while yielding to the intense passion to keep consuming sweets, and there's no sin so long as I don't throw it all up.  That's ludicrous, and it's precisely what Mith is proposing in his desperation to condone the gravely sinful practice of NFP.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #17 on: October 16, 2019, 10:11:47 AM »
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  • It is a matter of fact-- not opinion-- that the Holy Offices of Pope Pius IX (1853), Pope Leo XIII (1880), Pope Pius XI (1932), and of course Pope Pius XII, all taught that periodic continence can be lawful.  It is also a matter of fact-- not opinion-- that during that hundred year period (1853-Pius XII), theologians unanimously agreed on its intrinsic lawfulness (although they did disagree on some of the upstream principles and downstream applications).  It is also a matter of fact-- not opinion-- that theologians were never rebuked for believing it to be a lawful practice.
    .
    Given the facts, I would agree that the Church infallibly teaches that periodic continence can be lawful to use.  The alternative is to suppose that a hundred years worth of popes and theologians universally erred on the matter.  Let's keep in mind who those popes are-- not just Pius XII (as it is so often ignorantly alleged), but Pope Pius IX and Pope Leo XIII.  Pope St. Pius X, a militant pope on moral and doctrinal matters, did not censure or rebuke theologians for teaching it.  Pope Pius XI is included among these popes as well (which should give anyone who thinks that Casti Connubii denies the lawfulness of periodic continence pause, since no sooner was the ink dry on that encyclical than did the same pope explicitly confirm its lawfulness via the Holy Office).  The scope of periodic continence being taught exceeds the scope of religious liberty being taught both in time and space.  
    .
    Of course, it is one thing to simply reserve judgment on whether or not this amounts to infallible teaching; it is another thing altogether to accuse such orthodox men, over such a long period of time, as having taught grave or even heretical moral theology.  
    .
    Importantly, I should point out that an expression like "the Church teaches periodic continence" should be understood to simply mean that the Church teaches it can be lawful to use.  The Novus Ordo seems by all accounts to teach something very different, they seem to teach that it ought to be used in some general away.  The Catholic Church has never taught that, she has merely taught that there is nothing intrinsically evil about it, and regularly warned that it is something that should be taken seriously, not taught (as a method) publicly or indiscriminately, and only used when there is a commensurate reason.
    .
    Keep in mind that NFP did not exist when those popes talked about periodic continence. They were talking about the rhythm method, which works about 50% of the time, if that, while NFP is 99% effective like the pill. Two different animals.

    Offline SusanneT

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #18 on: October 16, 2019, 10:12:47 AM »
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  • Obviously there is nothing intrinsically evil about a married couple choosing to abstain, by mutual consent on any one occasion or over a period of time.  Indeed a considerate and Godly husband could reasonably be expected to abstain if his wife is immediately post partum, or ill etc.

    But what is immoral is for them to choose to be intimate, but to do so (whether though timing, the use of contraception or through not completing the act as God ordained) with the deliberate intent, or in the hope, that they avoid the natural and Godly purpose of the act - that is procreation.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #19 on: October 16, 2019, 10:13:59 AM »
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  • .
    You don't need to try harder to convince me or anyone else that you feel strongly about the issue, you need to try harder to convince me and others that we should believe Casti Connubii makes the distinction you say it does after I have made an argument to the contrary.  What are your (non-question begging and commensurately responsive) reasons for thinking this is the case?  Check the link I gave you if you need to refresh your memory.  Right now you're just picking up on the emotional hand wringing and zealous platitudes you left off with a year ago.
    .

    I've clearly outline where you're wrong.  Repeatedly.  You simply ignore anything I have to post.  I admonish you once again for your public grave sin of promoting grave sin.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #20 on: October 16, 2019, 10:15:16 AM »
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  • Obviously there is nothing intrinsically evil about a married couple choosing to abstain, by mutual consent on any one occasion or over a period of time.  Indeed a considerate and Godly husband could reasonably be expected to abstain if his wife is immediately post partum, or ill etc.

    But what is immoral is for them to choose to be intimate, but to do so (whether though timing, the use of contraception or through not completing the act as God ordained) with the deliberate intent, or in the hope, that they avoid the natural and Godly purpose of the act - that is procreation.

    Oh, come on.  According to Mith, human motives have nothing to do with the morality of actions.  What are you thinking?

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #21 on: October 16, 2019, 10:16:31 AM »
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  • By way of analogy against the false principles of Mith, there's no such thing as a sin of gluttony ... except if one were to eat unnatural/undigestible objects.

    Since putting food into my mouth is a natural action, so long as I put the food into my mouth, and it digests, and goes through my digestive tract in the natural matter, there's no such thing as the sin of gluttony.  I can stuff cake into my mouth for an hour straight, all the while yielding to the intense passion to keep consuming sweets, and there's no sin so long as I don't throw it all up.  That's ludicrous, and it's precisely what Mith is proposing in his desperation to condone the gravely sinful practice of NFP.
    .
    Any chance you could respond to what my actual position is sometime before I die?  I'm banking on another forty or fifty years, God willing.  Will that be enough time for you?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #22 on: October 16, 2019, 10:26:20 AM »
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  • Keep in mind that NFP did not exist when those popes talked about periodic continence. They were talking about the rhythm method, which works about 50% of the time, if that, while NFP is 99% effective like the pill. Two different animals.
    .
    None of the popes nor theologians who taught that PC was lawful conditioned its lawfulness on its consequences.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #23 on: October 16, 2019, 10:28:29 AM »
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  • And this is, to be blunt, one of the most absurd and ridiculous "positions" I have ever read.  You are deliberately and dishonestly conflating the formal motive of the action with the objective action itself.  This shows your desperation to justify this sinful activity, and you commit grave sin by promoting grave sin publicly.  ALL of the Catholic moral theology regarding human sɛҳuąƖity is related to the ends of marriage, the primary and the secondary, and the need for these to be in proper order.  This goes all the way back to the Church Fathers, and you're throwing that all out claiming that there's nothing to it so long as the act is performed naturally, then motives have absolutely nothing to do with it.  You're undermining all of Catholic moral theology by making this claim, and you're making yourself into a fool.  You also distort Vermeersch.  He was writing that the action is not objectively vitiated by the formal end, which is nothing more than making a distinction between principle #1 (the objective natural force of the act) and #2 (the formal intent).  EVERY moral theological approach to a given question takes into account not only the intrinsic nature of the act but also of the formal motive behind the act.  Acts can be objectively good or neutral but vitiated by intention, or objectively bad but not sinful due to intention.  So there's a distinction between the objective nature of the act and its morality due to the formal motive, which is why Vermeersch says "necessarily".

    Not to mention, you may want to think again before publicly encouraging grave sin ... since with every post you are endangering your eternal salvation.
    Here we go again:
    Loudestmouth gets argued into a corner, and starts accusing his opponents of dishonesty (his own psychological projection), dishonest motives, and all the rest.
    Typical.
    Habitual.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #24 on: October 16, 2019, 10:30:29 AM »
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  • I've clearly outline where you're wrong.  Repeatedly.  You simply ignore anything I have to post.  I admonish you once again for your public grave sin of promoting grave sin.
    More of the same: 
    Arguing with Loudestmouth is a grave sin!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #25 on: October 16, 2019, 10:34:13 AM »
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  • .
    None of the popes nor theologians who taught that PC was lawful conditioned its lawfulness on its consequences.
    In all that you have written, it sure sounds to me like you are defending NFP as a form of "natural" contraceptive. It is as good as the pill you know, and so do all the people who use it. If it was not 99% effective, I doubt anyone who qualifies, is in danger of death, would have relations. The rhythm method on the other hand is a crapshoot.

    The Church always permitted annulments, but now they have "discovered" many more psychological reasons to grant annulments. That sounds the same as your reasoning for NFP.

    If I were to follow the evidence of the popes you bring up, I would use the rhythm method, and have a lot of children at that at best 50/50 effectiveness.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #26 on: October 16, 2019, 10:42:19 AM »
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  • ….One has to be very careful when they play that game (NFP), it is a most serious matter. Today, people use NFP to avoid children, like the world uses contraceptives. Avoiding children by contraceptives is worse than abortion, for in abortion the child has a soul and goes to Limbo to live a perfect earthly life for all eternity, while in contracepting, no soul is ever created, their existence was altogether snuffed away.


    If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

    St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, Doctor of the Church:
    I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein. Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)
    Take a good look at what the saints have said, you are threading on dangerous ground.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #27 on: October 16, 2019, 10:44:57 AM »
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  • Here we go again:
    Loudestmouth gets argued into a corner, and starts accusing his opponents of dishonesty (his own psychological projection), dishonest motives, and all the rest.
    Typical.
    Habitual.
    Cada loco con su tema.

    Some advice young man:
    With your every word you discredit your 101 reasons book. Quit while you are ahead, it may already be too late. 

    Idle hands are the devil's playground.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #28 on: October 16, 2019, 10:52:01 AM »
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  • Suppose a woman has a miscarriage, and is advised by her doctor that, if she and her spouse abstains from the marital act for 90 days, it will improve the chances of procreating a live birth.

    In this case NFP/abstinence is used not to frustrate or avoid childbearing, but in order to INCREASE THE CHANCES of a successful birth.

    Yet if NFP/abstinence is intrinsically evil, this advice could not be followed, and the primary end of marriage would be frustrated.

    It is clear, therefore, that NFP/abstinence is not intrinsically evil.

    Circuмstances can make it good (promoting the primary end of marriage).

    That is to say: Whether one calls it NFP or abstinence, the goal of temporarily avoiding procreation is not always evil.

    It is not surprising to me that the Feeneyites here have a problem understanding this, since just as in the case of baptism of desire, what they are really doing is reacting against the potential for abusing the principal, and that reaction leads them in both cases to overreact and condemn the principle itself.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #29 on: October 16, 2019, 10:56:34 AM »
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  • .
    None of the popes nor theologians who taught that PC was lawful conditioned its lawfulness on its consequences.

    No, but it's all about the INTENT.  Intent is a huge factor in the morality of human actions, and you've been far too dismissive of it.

    We could examine each Holy Office directive in detail, and I have on different threads, but none of them are any endorsement of NFP.