Author Topic: Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?  (Read 1895 times)

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Offline Matto

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    • Julian Moore
Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
« on: February 10, 2017, 04:25:35 PM »
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  • This idea came up and I wondered about it. Do you think Novus Ordo Baptisms are valid? It seems in my general experience most trads consider Novus Ordo Baptisms to be valid unless the priest changed the words during the ceremony. But I am aware that some sedevacantists doubt the validity of Novus Ordo Baptisms and conditionally Baptize converts from the Novus Ordo, but I do not think this is common. It seems like it is common for trads to doubt the validity of Novus Ordo Communion and Confession and Holy Orders and Confirmation and Extreme Unction but not Baptism. What do you think?
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    Offline Arvinger

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #1 on: February 10, 2017, 04:32:26 PM »
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  • If the Trinitarian formula is used and the priest intends to do what the Church does I don't see how could the NO baptism be invalid. And since the majority of sedes believe in BoD for unconverted Muslims, Jews etc., according to their logic a person with invalid baptism would surely receive BoD  :wink:.

    I know there is a book arguing invalidity of the new rite of baptism by Patrick Pollock (never heard of him except for that book, apparently even sedes hardly heard of him - http://sedevacantist.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1684), but I have never read it.


    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #2 on: February 10, 2017, 04:33:09 PM »
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  • I think along the same line of thinking as you said. I did find out in my case though that even though I had a NO baptism, I was baptized by a priest ordained in the old rite.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline Arvinger

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #3 on: February 10, 2017, 04:38:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Kephapaulos
    I was baptized by a priest ordained in the old rite.

    It is not really relevant, since anyone can validly baptize - it does not have to be a priest. Even an atheist or a pagan can validly baptize if the proper formula is used and he intends to do what the Church does.

    Even the Dimonds do not question validity of the Novus Ordo baptism.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #4 on: February 10, 2017, 04:53:12 PM »
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  • Only four Sacraments in the Novus Ordo are dubious. Namely, Confirmation, Eucharist, Extreme Unction, and Holy Orders.

    Because the essentials have not changed in the sacrament of Baptism, Penance, and Matrimony, there is no reason to doubt their validity.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Matto

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #5 on: February 10, 2017, 04:58:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Only four Sacraments in the Novus Ordo are dubious. Namely, Confirmation, Eucharist, Extreme Unction, and Holy Orders.

    Because the essentials have not changed in the sacrament of Baptism, Penance, and Matrimony, there is no reason to doubt their validity.

    But if Holy Orders are not valid, then Penance is invalid also among Novus Ordo priests because laymen cannot forgive sins.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #6 on: February 10, 2017, 05:03:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Only four Sacraments in the Novus Ordo are dubious. Namely, Confirmation, Eucharist, Extreme Unction, and Holy Orders.

    Because the essentials have not changed in the sacrament of Baptism, Penance, and Matrimony, there is no reason to doubt their validity.

    But if Holy Orders are not valid, then Penance is invalid also among Novus Ordo priests because laymen cannot forgive sins.


    Well... dubious is not necessarily invalid, but I guess the safest route is confessing to a Priest ordained in the Old Rite.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #7 on: February 10, 2017, 05:14:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Arvinger
    Quote from: Kephapaulos
    I was baptized by a priest ordained in the old rite.

    It is not really relevant, since anyone can validly baptize - it does not have to be a priest. Even an atheist or a pagan can validly baptize if the proper formula is used and he intends to do what the Church does.

    Even the Dimonds do not question validity of the Novus Ordo baptism.



    Yes, true, but the fact that the priest who baptized me was ordained in the old rite would mean he would have more likely went by the book and not messed around with the form and matter.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #8 on: February 10, 2017, 10:24:29 PM »
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  • Our pastor (sedevacantist) would typically take it case-by-case. If family members were present at the baptism and stated that the baptism was done properly, then our pastor would accept the baptism. If there was any doubt, he would repeat the sacrament.

    Though the further we get away from the changes put in place by Vatican II, the more likely so-called Novus ordo clergy may introduce some kind of novelty into the process. So some traditional clergy are apparently repeating the sacrament more often as time goes on. It's kind of similar to what happened with the Old Catholic sect - for the first 50 years or so after they were excommunicated, their sacraments were still considered valid. But then so much time had passed and their training became questionable, so many clergy began not to trust their Sacraments any longer.

    Online Nadir

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #9 on: February 10, 2017, 11:55:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Kephapaulos
    Quote from: Arvinger
    Quote from: Kephapaulos
    I was baptized by a priest ordained in the old rite.

    It is not really relevant, since anyone can validly baptize - it does not have to be a priest. Even an atheist or a pagan can validly baptize if the proper formula is used and he intends to do what the Church does.

    Even the Dimonds do not question validity of the Novus Ordo baptism.



    Yes, true, but the fact that the priest who baptized me was ordained in the old rite would mean he would have more likely went by the book and not messed around with the form and matter.


    I don't believe it is safe or fair toassume that priests ordained in the new rite do not intend to do what the Church does or change the form and matterr, thus invalidating the sacrament of Baptism.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #10 on: February 11, 2017, 10:32:28 AM »
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  • I was originally baptized as a Methodist in 1949.  They use the Trinitarian  Formula.
    In 1953 I was re Baptized as a Roman Catholic conditionally.  


    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #11 on: February 11, 2017, 12:07:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Quote from: Kephapaulos
    Quote from: Arvinger
    Quote from: Kephapaulos
    I was baptized by a priest ordained in the old rite.

    It is not really relevant, since anyone can validly baptize - it does not have to be a priest. Even an atheist or a pagan can validly baptize if the proper formula is used and he intends to do what the Church does.

    Even the Dimonds do not question validity of the Novus Ordo baptism.



    Yes, true, but the fact that the priest who baptized me was ordained in the old rite would mean he would have more likely went by the book and not messed around with the form and matter.


    I don't believe it is safe or fair toassume that priests ordained in the new rite do not intend to do what the Church does or change the form and matterr, thus invalidating the sacrament of Baptism.


    I do not argue that all priests ordained in the new rite do not carry out baptism correctly, but it can be a possible higher likelihood for a priest in the old rite to especially go by the book.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline songbird

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #12 on: February 11, 2017, 04:45:09 PM »
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  • There better be the "intention" to remove Original Sin.  IMO I don't think that would be in the heart of a Marxist New Order, do you?  Want to take a chance?!

    Offline For Greater Glory

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    Are Novus Ordo Baptisms Valid?
    « Reply #13 on: February 12, 2017, 10:21:54 PM »
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  •       Some years ago, Jesuit theologian, Fr. Paul Trinchard, ( R. I. P.)  told us that many dioceses in the U. S. were using manuals which stated that original sin was the state of the world that the child was born into, not a condition of his soul. Needless to say, I had my two younger children conditionally baptized by Fr. Post with the SSPX.
           I wouldn't trust anything in the NO. The priest and the director of religious education were going to teach Planned Parenthood sex ed to my older children, but I said "No, you're not." and pulled them out of CCD.


     

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