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Author Topic: Archbishop Thuc - Consecrations  (Read 28561 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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« Reply #240 on: March 14, 2012, 07:29:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    katholikos-

    Thank you for the sincere response. I will try to figure out if I will respond fully, partially, or at all. Again, at a certain point, we can go on forever. And, again, my argument is not about SVism itself, but I think the complexity of the issue, as shown by our lengthy discussion and imagining just how long our disagreement could go on for (forever?), proves the point I wish to make. I'm sure we'll have a good time engaging on similar and other issues if I don't respond to this.

    In Christ and Mary,

    Richard


    When I first started talking with you s2srea I was wondering why all your posts had a thumbs down.  You seem of good will to me based on our conversations.  It can be difficult to find someone who will discuss things level-headedly sometimes.  

    Best Wishes,
    John
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #241 on: March 14, 2012, 09:41:48 AM »
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  • Thanks LoT. I get the feeling that the down thumbing is from a newer member (who has 10 days less 1 as a member on this forum), who seems to be overzealous in his stance on the SV position(nothing wrong with that), and is of the mentality that whoever does not agree or is not on board with the stance, shouldn't be given credibility. Its okay though, he will mature. Also I may be wrong.

    katholikos, you and others also are able to discuss this issue well, and that is always good too.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #242 on: March 14, 2012, 09:57:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Thanks LoT. I get the feeling that the down thumbing is from a newer member (who has 10 days less 1 as a member on this forum), who seems to be overzealous in his stance on the SV position(nothing wrong with that), and is of the mentality that whoever does not agree or is not on board with the stance, shouldn't be given credibility. Its okay though, he will mature. Also I may be wrong.

    katholikos, you and others also are able to discuss this issue well, and that is always good too.


    I am very sorry if a fellow SV is doing this.  Katholikos is amazing.  I would like to speak with you if you get a chance Katholikos.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline katholikos

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    « Reply #243 on: March 14, 2012, 05:04:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Even then, Bp. Sanborn has said 90% of the people can't follow the arguments ... so why expect it?


    What is the alternative? Not to solve it? But the question must be solved at least in the practical order: You must make a decision as to what to believe and where/whether to go to church. If you take the resistance position, what sort of catechism do you teach your children? Do you just blacken out those passages that talk about submission to the Pope? Or those that talk about the authority of the magisterium and the glory of the Church? Does the Faith, then, change?

    Quote
    Anyway, even if the entire traditional world became sedevacantists, how would that right things? If you know ... please share it.


    For one thing, it would rob the Novus Ordo Church of a huge amount of credibility. The main reason the Novus Ordo can do so much damage is because people acknowledge it to be the Catholic Church. Imagine what would happen if people started laughing at the claim! Imagine what would have happened if the local ordinaries in the late 60s had told Paul VI that his claim to the papacy is laughable, and he should try to deceive and impose his monster mass on someone else! Oh well. If Paul VI had only been laughed out of St. Peter's basilica... how different it would all be today!

    If the SSPX were sedevacantist, the New Church would seriously risk being exposed for the charlatan institution it is. More and more people could be converted to the True Faith (I am thinking in particular of those steeped in the errors of modernism and those non-Catholics who never dreamed of becoming Catholic because they could tell the Novus Ordo Church is just the Anglican religion from a few decades ago). Which ultimately means that more and more grace would flow and God would certainly bless us in ways we cannot imagine right now. He would surely hasten the restoration of Holy Mother Church!

    Let this be our prayer!

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #244 on: March 14, 2012, 05:40:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: katholikos
    If the SSPX were sedevacantist, the New Church would seriously risk being exposed for the charlatan institution it is. More and more people could be converted to the True Faith  


    I'm not so sure. Sedevacantists are labeled as crazy by the NO church (as are all Trads for that matter). So I'm not sure the number of Trads would increase if the SSPX went sede. It would be much better than the state the Society is in now though (refering to Bishop Fellay's attempt at reconciliation).
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #245 on: March 14, 2012, 08:37:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
    It would be contingent on the Mass Media. They are the ones that suppress or give focus to a cause. Right now they are the ones really responsible for making the SSPX be the ones to "represent" traditional Catholicism, while they purposely keep the sedevacantist cause out of the public mind. We know WHY they do that! It is really testimony that the Freemasons know what cause REALLY exposes the global anti-christian agenda!


    The Mass Media didn't really say a word about the SSPX either, until Bishop Williamson's remarks on the h0Ɩ0h0αx. And Fellay's attempts at a "reconciliation" with Rome is giving them attention from the media, because selling out to Rome would be the media's dream come true!
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Busillis

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    « Reply #246 on: March 16, 2012, 07:46:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Busillis
    Yep.

    Sedevacantists criticize the right things, but where's their authority? Why haven't they elected a pope?


    Well Busillis, I don't think a SV needs to elect a pope after coming to their conclusion. He only recognizes things as he see them, but needing to elect a pope is not part of the opinion or a requirement of submitting to it. Also, and I hope I'm not mistaken, the authority for SV is the same as that of those who reject the Modernists- it comes from supplied jurisdiction.



    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Busillis
    Why haven't they elected a pope?


    Laypeople cannot elect a Pope.


    Quote from: Cupertino
    Quote from: Busillis
    Quote from: s2srea
    You see, I think a major issue with SVism is the depth of theology it dives into; or perhaps the issues is not with SVism, but most SVists failing to understand a few key points.  

    This type of theological conversation is not really proper, much less required, for Joe Catholic. To discuss Cannon law, Church history, and advanced theological teachings, which were never really meant for anyone, not even yourselves, but for theologians of the Church, never has been, is not now, and never will be the responsibility of the average laity; and this is where I think many SVists fail.


    Yep.

    Sedevacantists criticize the right things, but where's their authority? Why haven't they elected a pope?


    Busillis, sedevacantists are not such a group as to refer to "them" as doing something all together at once. Yet, some will criticize that fact and say they have no "unity". It's just like my previous post about accusations of being too simple or being too complicated! The true Church down through the ages has always shown a non-substantial disagreement among Her theologians whenever there was a crisis. Paradoxically, this is always the Mystical Body sorting out the truth leading finally to a conclusion. Things don't just instantly happen like your microwave oven today!

    Where is the "authority", you ask? Read the second to the last chapter of "Liberalism is a Sin" and you will find out that reason, enlightened by faith is a true authority. The sedevacantists have that.

    Why haven't they elected a pope? Some have tried to, which is expected in any terrible crisis. More than most are totally against such a thing because they know that only the people of the Roman province have the right to elect their Bishop. Yes, laymen are allowed to participate, but it always involves Roman clergy.


    Thanks for the replies. I suppose my misgivings about sedevacantism partially arise from the feeling that it's too morbid. I'm already at the fringes of society in the way I think, but embracing the sedevacantist view would alienate me even further.


    Offline Malleus 01

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    « Reply #247 on: March 16, 2012, 09:22:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: katholikos
    If the SSPX were sedevacantist, the New Church would seriously risk being exposed for the charlatan institution it is. More and more people could be converted to the True Faith  


    I'm not so sure. Sedevacantists are labeled as crazy by the NO church (as are all Trads for that matter). So I'm not sure the number of Trads would increase if the SSPX went sede. It would be much better than the state the Society is in now though (refering to Bishop Fellay's attempt at reconciliation).


    It would be contingent on the Mass Media. They are the ones that suppress or give focus to a cause. Right now they are the ones really responsible for making the SSPX be the ones to "represent" traditional Catholicism, while they purposely keep the sedevacantist cause out of the public mind. We know WHY they do that! It is really testimony that the Freemasons know what cause REALLY exposes the global anti-christian agenda!

    Katholikos is right about "risk" but not necessarily "serious risk", because the Mass Media has so much control. However, they don't have that much control of the Internet, and I think Katholikos may very well be exactly right  because the Internet is unwieldy for the Freemasons of the Mass Media. They have created a monster they cannot control.




    The Key issue in all of this is how best to preserve the Faith as handed down by Christ to the Apostles and guarded by the Holy Ghost since the First Pentecost Sunday.  

    I see a lot of back and forth about who is right and who is wrong about who is obedient and who isnt - about The Legitimacy of Vatican II Popes - or the question of how can there be a true Pope or then how can a sedevacantist group ever elect a true Pope to which the obvious simple answer is - with GOD all things are possible. My answer is simple - Who limits GOD? Do we not all claim to believe in GOD Almighty?  So , does that sound altruistic or does that sound too simplistic?  Am I bold enough to say for certain the "Thesis of Cassiciacuм" has more merit than the theological stance of sedevacantism or the ongoing argument regarding "Baptism of Desire" being invalid or am I to say the Dimonds are too rigid in their interpretation and insistance of its exclusion and everyone else is a "HERETIC"  To me - the Traditional movement is its own worst enemy. Or as Dr Drolesky is fond of saying - Bishop Pivarunas is WRONG About this or that etc etc etc .  

    So in keeping with the subject matter of your post - the Masons can indeed and do indeed exploit these divisions to their advantage and rather than combat them by providing a united front - we instead spend our time divided and weak. Now , as for the Novus Ordo and their perception of the Traditional Movement - to me thats a non issue. I believe the lions share of the Conservative Novus Ordo hate the changes but feel they must obey. In a lot of ways that is commendable.  So there is middle ground. We simple choose to ignore that middle ground. The left wing Novus Ordo is probably not Catholic anyway - so why worry about what they think.

    What we lack as Catholics - is a common united front.  Certainly in Tradition - from the time of Pope Pius the 12th back - we have the foundation for that United Front. Perhaps the answer lies in a new Marian Movement of Laity.   If we form a Marian Society - free to all Traditional Catholics - regardless of whether or not they are SSPX or Sedevacantist or SSPV or Dimond or even Conservative Novus Ordo and we actually decide to practise what we all claim to believe in and dedicate the rest of our lives in solving the division through spiritual action - are we then to despair and say its impossible or are we going to take action and rid ourselves of the very thing used to exploit us - our self division.  

    A Common Ground can be found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For make no mistake - there is division not merely because of human activity - but the war is being fought in the spiritual realm as well. If we hope to win - we need to fight in both simultaneously.

    Pax  



    Offline Busillis

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    « Reply #248 on: March 16, 2012, 01:26:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
    Quote from: Busillis
    Thanks for the replies. I suppose my misgivings about sedevacantism partially arise from the feeling that it's too morbid. I'm already at the fringes of society in the way I think, but embracing the sedevacantist view would alienate me even further.


    A real shame that you consider feelings to be such a misgiving as to trump truth. For truth we should give our very lives, never mind suffer the inconvenience of initial unpleasant feelings. The Holy Scriptures predicted the Antichrist would decieve most Catholics around the world. Those who resist the deception will undergo inconveniences and sufferings to save their souls.




    I didn't say I was convinced of the truth of sedevacantism. If I was I would have that viewpoint, whether it displeased me or not. I'm just entertaining the idea that it is the correct way to view the situation in the Church, and if it is that would be depressing. I want to feel I have finally arrived at the truth of things, and to realize I still may have stages to go is painful, since I've already experienced many trials.

    Offline katholikos

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    « Reply #249 on: March 17, 2012, 08:46:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: Busillis

    I didn't say I was convinced of the truth of sedevacantism. If I was I would have that viewpoint, whether it displeased me or not. I'm just entertaining the idea that it is the correct way to view the situation in the Church, and if it is that would be depressing. I want to feel I have finally arrived at the truth of things, and to realize I still may have stages to go is painful, since I've already experienced many trials.


    Busillis, I encourage you to read the following transcribed talk by John Daly, given in 2002, entitled "The Impossible Crisis":

    http://www.thefourmarks.com/Daly.htm#crisis

    I have yet to see a single Novus Ordo or SSPX apologist even attempt to refute this argument-at-large.

    The nice part about this type of argument is that it does not require anyone to detect, suspect, or judge anyone else of being a heretic. Not that that would be unreasonable, but since a lot of people seem "uncomfortable" with that, this argument presented here totally avoids that whole problem, and establishes sedevacantism while refuting the "recognize but resist" position, the Novus Ordo position, and also, in the same breaths, the errors of Feeneyism.

    Another easy-to-follow essay is "Resistance and Indefectibility" by Fr. Donald Sanborn (1991):

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=21&catname=10

    Here, then-Fr. Sanborn analyzes the 3 main positions that have been advanced to deal with the situation since 1958: indult, SSPX, and sedevacantism. Fantastic read, good summary, level-headed analysis.

    Also, a good "reality check" for the "resisters" (indult & SSPX) is presented in "Refinishing the Great Facade: The Vatican, the SSPX, and the 'Restoration of Tradition'":

    http://www.novusordowatch.org/refinishing_the_great_facade.htm

    It is a great read, an informative essay about Vatican II, the New Church, the SSPX, Catholic principles, the bogus "Restoration of Tradition" advanced by The Remnant, manifest heresy, and the real Benedict.

    At the end of the day, we must face reality as it is. We cannot begin with a desired conclusion and then try to find a way to "reason" ourselves to this conclusion. In all this turmoil, let us never despair but trust and hope in God, who foreknew and allowed this entire "situation" from all eternity, and certainly knows how and when to end it. Let us be grateful that we have been chosen to be a part of it, to be allowed to suffer through this, for His Holy Church and in penance for our manifold sins.

    Offline Sede Catholic

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    « Reply #250 on: March 18, 2012, 12:15:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: katholikos
    Quote from: Busillis

    I didn't say I was convinced of the truth of sedevacantism. If I was I would have that viewpoint, whether it displeased me or not. I'm just entertaining the idea that it is the correct way to view the situation in the Church, and if it is that would be depressing. I want to feel I have finally arrived at the truth of things, and to realize I still may have stages to go is painful, since I've already experienced many trials.


    Busillis, I encourage you to read the following transcribed talk by John Daly, given in 2002, entitled "The Impossible Crisis":

    http://www.thefourmarks.com/Daly.htm#crisis

    I have yet to see a single Novus Ordo or SSPX apologist even attempt to refute this argument-at-large.

    The nice part about this type of argument is that it does not require anyone to detect, suspect, or judge anyone else of being a heretic. Not that that would be unreasonable, but since a lot of people seem "uncomfortable" with that, this argument presented here totally avoids that whole problem, and establishes sedevacantism while refuting the "recognize but resist" position, the Novus Ordo position, and also, in the same breaths, the errors of Feeneyism.

    Another easy-to-follow essay is "Resistance and Indefectibility" by Fr. Donald Sanborn (1991):

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=21&catname=10

    Here, then-Fr. Sanborn analyzes the 3 main positions that have been advanced to deal with the situation since 1958: indult, SSPX, and sedevacantism. Fantastic read, good summary, level-headed analysis.

    Also, a good "reality check" for the "resisters" (indult & SSPX) is presented in "Refinishing the Great Facade: The Vatican, the SSPX, and the 'Restoration of Tradition'":

    http://www.novusordowatch.org/refinishing_the_great_facade.htm

    It is a great read, an informative essay about Vatican II, the New Church, the SSPX, Catholic principles, the bogus "Restoration of Tradition" advanced by The Remnant, manifest heresy, and the real Benedict.

    At the end of the day, we must face reality as it is. We cannot begin with a desired conclusion and then try to find a way to "reason" ourselves to this conclusion. In all this turmoil, let us never despair but trust and hope in God, who foreknew and allowed this entire "situation" from all eternity, and certainly knows how and when to end it. Let us be grateful that we have been chosen to be a part of it, to be allowed to suffer through this, for His Holy Church and in penance for our manifold sins.


    These links contain excellent proofs of the Sede fact, and show that it cannot be refuted.
    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV


    Offline Busillis

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    « Reply #251 on: March 19, 2012, 02:39:28 PM »
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  • Thanks katholikos! I'll take a look at the material.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Archbishop Thuc - Consecrations
    « Reply #252 on: July 14, 2017, 12:32:13 PM »
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  • If I may add my five cents (inflation!) here for a moment:

    The question, "Who is more Catholic? The SSPXer or the conservative Novus Ordo?", is a most curious one, and difficult to answer properly. Let me illustrate:

    (1) The conservative Novus Ordo adherent is right (and therefore more Catholic) in his acceptance of the principles regarding the Magisterium, the papacy, and the Church's teaching and ruling authority. He adheres to the same principles in this regard as the sedevacantist does. But because he is mistaken about the identity of the Pope and the Church, i.e., because he is wrong about who the Pope is and where the Church is, and instead accepts a heretic for the Pope and a heretical body for the Magisterium, he is therefore drawn into heresy and other error. Hence, though he is right about the authority of the Pope and Church, he is wrong about who these are, and thereby falls into grievous error and heresy. For him, it's (the false) Pope first, then the Faith.

    (2) The SSPX adherent is right in his acceptance of the content of the Faith, in almost all parts. He adheres, basically, to the Faith taught before the death of Pope Pius XII, but because he, like the Novus Ordo, is mistaken about the identify of the Pope and the hierarchy, he realizes that there is a disconnect between the (in his mind) true Pope and hierarchy and the Faith of the Ages. He "solves" this problem by modifying some Church doctrines and dogmas (authority of the Magisterium, papal primacy/jurisdiction, etc.), which in practice really means that he simply IGNORES the "Pope" and the "Church" whenever he thinks it necessary to safeguard his faith. For him, it's the Faith first (sort of), then the (false) Pope.

    Neither position is truly Catholic. The error in both is that the Pope is no longer connected to the True Faith - an impossibility. (Vatican I declared that the Holy See cannot fail, and that true doctrine is always celebrated there.) One decides to give up the Faith for the Pope, whereas the other decides to give up the Pope for the Faith.

    Only the sedevacantist escapes the dilemma: By recognizing that there can be no Pope who does not have the Faith, nor the Faith without submission to the Pope, he must necessarily conclude that, in order to keep the Faith intact, the only possible solution is that the men who have claimed to be Catholic Popes since 1958, cannot have been true Popes, and the entire church they led, cannot be the Catholic Church.

    This, ladies and gentlemen, is the whole story in a nutshell.


    This is a most excellent post.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Archbishop Thuc - Consecrations
    « Reply #253 on: July 14, 2017, 01:50:52 PM »
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  • If I understand you right, you took issue with my defense of sedevacantism on the grounds that it was too theological. For a position that is theological in nature, necessarily so, yes, I think that's a bit unfair, especially since I'd be opening up myself to the charge of not using enough theology if I don't use much of it. But that's just my opinion. If you think I have unjustly "accused" you of being unfair, I am happy to retract that. I suppose it's a matter of opinion/perspective. (But you did tell me, in a post on page 23, that the issue of sedevacantism was "more complex" than I was making it out to be in a particular post - didn't you?)



    No, I don't think it's necessary. It probably depends on the person. Some people "get it" right away, just from the basics, whereas others aren't satisfied by that and want more.



    "Given that", huh? :) Of course sedevacantism has a dogmatic, doctrinal, and canonical basis.



    It's a given that anything having to do with one's soul, one's salvation, one's Faith, ought to be accompanied by lots of prayer. That goes for ANY position - that of remaining in the Novus Ordo, that of taking the "papal/magisterial babysitter" position of the SSPX, and that of sedevacantism. Before you call a liturgical rite universally promulgated and approved by the (person you recognize to be the) Pope EVIL, yeah, you should do a bit of praying. This argument cuts in all directions.



    You've lost me. What I'm saying is that no matter which way you slice it, the situation we are faced with (and regardless of what position you take) is the greatest mystery since the founding of the Church. What we have been witnessing since 1958 has never happened before.



    That's all well and good, but what I'm saying is that YOUR position CONTRADICTS the catechism.



    Let me explain: Coming to affirm sedevacantism is the ONLY WAY that you can escape the dilemma of either schism or heresy. If you do not want to make a determination on the "Pope," fine, but then follow him (Benedict), because your catechism compels you to. Ah! But if you do that, then what do you believe? Do you believe the old or the new Faith? You cannot believe both. (Challenge me on this if you like.)

    OK, so you decide to stick with the Old Faith. Now you have a problem: You cannot submit to the "Pope" the way the Old Faith tells you to. In other words, both options run into a contradiction, into a dead end: You will either refuse to submit to the Pope (schism), or you will submit to him and thus compel yourself to believe the New Faith (heresy).

    Therefore, sedevacantism is the only possible conclusion. It avoids both schism and heresy. That's it in a nutshell. And this is all knowable.



    Who are these brightest theological minds? Can we get some examples? Sedevacantism isn't that tough to figure out. But for many people it's unsettling, understandably. There are many obstacles in people's lives, some more and some less burdensome. Some are faced with no Mass to go to; some will have family problems; some depend on a "marriage annulment" from the Novus Ordo to be able to keep their lives in order; some don't have sufficient resources to research the matter; some will lose their job; some will lose recognition; some will fall into depression, etc.

    I am not saying that everyone who hasn't embraced sedevacantism has an ulterior motive. Not at all. But we would be fools to tell ourselves that some of the above motives don't come into play for a lot of people.

    Some people just haven't come across the right sources yet (that's how it was for me - I wasn't aware of all Church teachings when I was in the SSPX, but once I was exposed to more Church teachings, I realized the SSPX was wrong and sedevacantism was true). And for some still, sedevacantism maybe has never been sufficiently explained to them. And yes, grace plays a big role too, probably the biggest one. Think of all the monasteries and convents no longer in existence. All those pious clergy who used to be there - are no longer praying. The Holy Mass is barely offered anywhere anymore, and so much less grace is available today from those sources.

    But this whole argument being made here isn't a very good one. One might as well apply it to all traditionalists and ask, "How come 99.999% of all 'Catholics' aren't Traditionalists?"



    It's not right to accuse people of bad will rashly. Unfortunately, some have a terrible habit of doing that. I am not one of them.

    But to get back to the issue: If someone wants to defend the SSPX-type position in light of the evidence, by all means, let me hear it.



    And how do we "play it safe"? By becoming schismatics or by becoming heretics? (see the two non-sedevacantist options I described above)



    Wait a minute... you're saying that we need new Revelation from God to be able to figure out what we ought to do or believe? I won't jump the gun here, but I think that's probably a heretical idea. In any case, Sacred Theology uses human reason and logic quite a bit in its method. While it would require theology to sort things out totally (i.e., which precise theory is correct? sede vacante, sede impedita, material/formal theory, etc.), it does not require a theologian to conclude that Benedict XVI is not the Pope or that one cannot follow the New Religion. Heck, you would probably agree to the latter part of my statement.



    There's no new theology required. No new revelation, no new principles.



    It's very easy to figure out that Ratzinger is not the Pope: You cannot submit to him without losing the Faith. That's the end of it, right there. And you basically agree with that.




    OK then.... so that means that we can be Novus Ordo? That we can fully embrace the entire Novus Ordo magisterium, liturgy, canon law, canonizations, etc., and our faith will not be in danger? If so, then, what the heck are we doing trying to be traditional? Lenten fast? Heck! There's an easier way to Heaven now....



    Thanks for being straightforward about it. So, the institution you believe to be the Roman Catholic Church, the only Ark of Salvation, is "not acting Catholic." May I suggest that that's perhaps because it isn't Catholic? (Ditto for Benedict.) Funny how you feel competent to recognize what is and isn't Catholic (even though the "Church" tells you otherwise!), but when it comes to drawing the logical conclusion, you decide it's above your head and could not possibly be "required" of you.

    If you "have the Catholic Church to follow," why don't you then? Or, do you concede that this modernist monster headquartered in Rome isn't the Catholic Church, after all?

    And what's this business about "Tradition" you allegedly adhere to? Where did it come from if not from the Catholic Church? (The one you think is still in Rome) And who gets to decide what is and isn't traditional? Where do you draw the line, and what if someone disagrees?

    And where in any theological manual or magisterial statement does it say that Catholics are only bound to submit to "Tradition" (defined by themselves) and can ignore the Pope/Church at all other times?



    See, this is exactly what I mean: You guys have to change the Faith in order to uphold your "resist" position. The clause "insofar as he is within the genuine teachings of the Roman Catholic Church" you will find in no council docuмent or theological manual or catechism, at least not in the way you mean it. In fact, Vatican I made clear that we can safely submit to the Pope and the Church, knowing that they cannot mislead us. Vatican I taught: "The first condition of salvation is to maintain the rule of the true faith. And since that saying of our lord Jesus Christ, You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, cannot fail of its effect, the words spoken are confirmed by their consequences. For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour. Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the apostolic see preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion" (http://www.dailycatholic.org/history/20ecuмe3.htm).

    Please explain how you reconcile this with your "recognize and resist" position.



    Please do not think me to be doubting or attacking either your sincerity or your devotion and piety. By no means. I can totally sympathize and commiserate with you. I know you want to do what is right and what God asks of you. I am just telling you that this position you have taken is not compatible with that very Faith you profess to hold.

    How will you save your soul by following the teachings and commandments of the Church when you disregard those teachings and commandments after 1958 (or 1965, whenever the case may be for you)? As long as you believe this institution to be the Catholic Church, you have no grounds for refusing it. You must conclude that it cannot be the Catholic Church.

    Honestly, if all the people in the SSPX and the indult had concluded sedevacantism 40 years ago, I doubt that the New Church would still exist, at least not the way it does now.

    The SSPX position, no matter how devout and sincere the individual people may be, has done grave damage to the Catholic Faith. The SSPX has led people to believe that the Catholic Church can teach error, impose impious rites and laws, can issue false "canonizations," can legislate error, and that a bishop from Switzerland (and thereby anyone, really, with a copy of Denzinger) can sit in judgment of the Holy See, filtering and contradicting what is issued by Rome. Unbelievable!

    May God bless!
    What a post.  I hope all is well with you Katholikos wherever you are. 
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church