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Author Topic: Any idea what Fr. Z is referring to here? (Serious Act of Persecution)  (Read 8396 times)

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Your personal opinions on the matter do not effect others and you shouldn't be trying to bind in conscience other people on these matters by saying they're not Catholic. Until the Church herself declares them to be not Catholic or doubtful, they're merely your opinion and should be addressed as such. If NO holy orders are invalid (I don't agree they are), the sheer amount of sacraments that would need to be redone would be an insurmountable task.
Who said anything about binding consciences? I can't do that. I'm just bearing the bad news to you, because clearly, you're unaware with the issues associated with the NO holy orders. The rite of consecration for Bishops has the same exact errors that Leo XIII condemned in Apostolicae Curae in 1896. It is an opinion that I, and many others here, hold to because it is well-founded in Catholic teaching.

If your position were true, why do the demons obey priests ordained in the new rite? Why do they recognize episcopal consecrations done in the Novus Ordo? Demons do not obey those who do not have authority.

Christ refutes that argument in St. Matthew 7:21-23:
Quote
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

His Name has power, so anyone could feasibly utilize It through deliverance prayers. Protestants are able to do so, not as effectively as a true Catholic priest, mind you, but it's possible. I had this same hang-up myself a while back too, so I'm not trying to belittle the argument. It's a good point on the face of it.

These are your personal opinions not gospel truth and definitely not charity. You're not "willing my good", you're just trying to be right on an internet forum.
You're right, they are opinions, but again, they're grounded in serious theological problems. Providing you with information closer to the truth is precisely charitable. What would be uncharitable is to know that there are issues with NO holy orders, but to ignore that and affirm you in the error that there's no spiritual danger in attending the NO, Motu or Indult rites.

And if you want to get into the matter of "tone" or my being blunt about these issues, well, I'm sorry if it came across that way, but it's an important matter that you need to know about for the sake of your soul.

Offline Yeti

  • Supporter
I don't believe they're doubtful. So it's your word against mine since the Church has never taken a position on it. She has declared literally nothing on NO Holy Orders being invalid, and if anything she has declared they are valid.

This is not true. Pope Pius XII defined dogmatically, ex cathedra, what words are required for validity in the sacrament of Holy Orders. And the new rite of Holy Orders does not use those words. Yes, the Church has judged this.


Offline Yeti

  • Supporter
For example, if the Church defines that only water is valid matter for baptism, then it is false to say that a person can use apple juice for baptism and claim the Church has not decided yet that it is invalid. Yes, it decided that when it said only water is usable. The same is true for the words of a sacrament.

Moreover, only certainly valid matter and form can be used in the sacraments at all, unless someone is dying and nothing else is available. There is no plausible argument that changing words that have been infallibly defined by the pope to be necessary for validity are certainly valid. If anything, they are certainly invalid.

A doubtful sacrament must be treated in practice as invalid, which is a corollary of the previous.

Ok, debate aside, I've found what he might be referring to:

https://www.davidlgray.info/

https://twitter.com/acatholiclife/status/1548055072159850496?s=20&t=C7DEeyXtlqUjrS7-OT6Tyg

There are rumblings going around that the ICKSP may be expelled from the Archdiocese of Chicago. That's what the rumor seems to be. It makes sense and is consistent with how that Archdiocese operates, but we'll hear more this weekend.

Ok, debate aside, I've found what he might be referring to:

https://www.davidlgray.info/

https://twitter.com/acatholiclife/status/1548055072159850496?s=20&t=C7DEeyXtlqUjrS7-OT6Tyg

There are rumblings going around that the ICKSP may be expelled from the Archdiocese of Chicago. That's what the rumor seems to be. It makes sense and is consistent with how that Archdiocese operates, but we'll hear more this weekend.
But then that wouldn't be "everyone".