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Poll

Affirm or deny: Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecumenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic and Pope Leo II ratified that condemnation.

Affirm
6 (60%)
Deny
4 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case  (Read 47776 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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  • The ol' "opinion" card eh?

    No certainty that a pope cannot run the Church into the shoals and smash all its rigging to bits, throw its sailors overboard, violate the laws of Church from sun up to sun down, mutilate the sacraments, create other doubtful ones, inject condemned heresies and errors into the solemn ordinary magisterium, convoke kayfabe Council's that "bind" Catholics to worldliness, decimate the calendar, reduce disciplines to nothing, enact others that promote sacrilege, carry out a daily regiment of destroying the faith all while seeming to be in bed with Communists, Masons, Abortionists, Homo/TransɛҳuąƖs, heretics, schismatics, pedophiles, and devil worshipers....

    No certain teaching there for you Stubborn - nothing to fall back on. Just, "I will remain the pope's good servant but...:sleep:"

    It's all just opinions for you - little pesky things - floating around in the deluded brains of the "gravely erroneous sedes" you have been railing against for years.
    To be fair, you were raised with a perverted concept of the Papacy and the Church so much of your resistance to the truth is based on your programming.

    I notice you had no rebukes for St. Alphonsus above - why is that? Is it because he will undermine your precious thesis that the Papacy and Church are not polluted in Her ordinary magisterium with errors, heresies, schism, sacrilege, and blasphemy?

    This poll is stupid. It achieves nothing. It proves nothing. It makes you look like the heretics. The, "purity of the Apostolic See" will forever remain intact because this is the promise of Christ that, "the gates of hell" (mouths of heretics) will never prevail against Her.


    But no, you Stubborn the jackass - you would have us all believe like you that it is stained, violated, smeared with all filthiness, poisoned at the source.

    Your opinions are damnable, you have been told countless times for years. How could any Catholic in good conscience share communion with someone who so boldly spreads such errors?

    I think the REAL reason you have never adopted the reasonable and theologically certain position of some sort of SVs is simply because you were raised to be the way you are and have become intransigent by degrees. You try to strawman sedes and say it is their fault you are not of their persuasion because they seem "aloof", or "call others heretic". No. I call bs on you. Sedes could be the nicest, kindness, most welcoming people on the planet, living the most heroically virtuous lives, but you would still come out to fight, "the grave error of the sedes." You always do - why? Because YOUR BELIEFS DON'T SUPPORT CATHOLIC DOCTRINE - and theirs do on this point, so there will ALWAYS be tension, and conflict there. And it ain't some small itty bitty little matter either - it is FUNDAMENTAL to the faith .

    That the hierarchy under the Vicar of Christ cannot lead the whole Church into apostasy, heresy, and schism is dogma - so do you have some other theological answer then? No, instead you twist and pervert the teaching to maintain the semblance of authority - but you gut the dogma of all meaning and trample Her teachings beneath your sullied feet in a vain and blustering attempt and you set yourself up as your own rule of faith  ABOVE the magisterium you claim to submit to.

    So playing the it is just an "opinion" card is lame, weak, pathetic, dishonest, etc.

    You just proved my point. :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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  • The R&R generally have reduced the divine Church to nothing but solemn pronouncements of the magisterium. Everything else is pope fallible opinions of liturgy, laws and disciplines.

    Statements produces casually by St. Thomas, like, "it would be blasphemy to say that the Church does anything in vain"

    As if he only meant solemn dogma!
    Nope, you are wrong. Just another one of your wrong opinions. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online MiracleOfTheSun

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  • Maybe the sedevacantism is frying your brain...

    Not really.  I have been doing fine, thanks.

    Although, R'n'R might be frying Catholic doctrine.  From My Catholic Faith (p. 142, paragraph 1):

    "What is schism? Schism is the act of refusing to submit to the authority of the Pope." 

    Of course, the question then becomes "to which of these men will I submit?"

    1) His Holiness Pope Leo 



    or

    2) Mr. Spock


    Online MiracleOfTheSun

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  • This website ceased to be Resistance some years ago; though info about the Resistance is sometimes tolerated, at best. It is sedevacantist now.

    When Matthew first created CathInfo I was deeply entrenched in R'n'R but changed to the dreaded sede position when I quit reading SSPX material and checked out what the sedes had to say for themselves.  Just saying that some of the readership might have changed in that time as well.  

    Offline Meg

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  • When Matthew first created CathInfo I was deeply entrenched in R'n'R but changed to the dreaded sede position when I quit reading SSPX material and checked out what the sedes had to say for themselves.  Just saying that some of the readership might have changed in that time as well. 

    Yes, it's likely that some of the readership here have changed their views from R&R to sedevacantist. That's a great victory for the sedevacantist majority here. The problem is, for me, is that the problem of Modernism is not really discussed anymore, since it doesn't really matter what heresy prevails in Rome, according to the sedevacantists. What matters, according to sedes, is that there is no Catholic Church is Rome. No Pope. Nothing remains of Catholicism in Rome, so what is the point in discussing the problems with Rome?

    So, rather than discussing the problems in Rome, the problems with other trads are discussed instead. That seems to be what matters most to the sedevacantists. Putting down other trads who don't have the "correct" beliefs is a top priority. That's so boring to me. And unnecessary. A waste of time.

    I wish there was a forum somewhere out there where the issues of Modernism/theCrisis could be discussed. Where we could talk about +ABL without the sedes derailing the discussion. Or talk about the talks of Fr. Hesse, and the other old trad guard who are being lost, since only the sede narrative can prevail. But hey, carry on.......
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Online MiracleOfTheSun

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  • Putting down other trads who don't have the "correct" beliefs is a top priority.

    It seems like I stopped receiving a ton of down thumbs after Sean Johnson left.  Maybe that's a coincidence - and he's not here to say otherwise - but that's just how it has gone.  And now, apparently, he even leans slightly sede.  But I do know what you mean and agree, and this is part of why I generally stay out of the fray.  The name calling here is pretty sad to be honest.  Maybe unfortunate is a better term.


    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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  • The R&R generally have reduced the divine Church to nothing but solemn pronouncements of the magisterium. Everything else is pope fallible opinions of liturgy, laws and disciplines.

    Statements produces casually by St. Thomas, like, "it would be blasphemy to say that the Church does anything in vain"

    As if he only meant solemn dogma!


    So go make your own Pope then.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • Quote
    In order that a violation of the law constitute an ecclesiastical crime, the violation must be imputable to the delinquent. Imputability is that property of an action in virtue of which it can be attributed to some person as its proper author.

    Fr. John J. McGrath, Comparative Study of Crime and Its Imputability in Ecclesiastical Criminal Law, and in American Criminal Law, 1957, Catholic University of America Press, p. 13.


    Quote
    The knowledge postulated for the imputing of an act as criminal to its author includes the knowledge that what is being done is unlawful. The act must proceed from the agent’s free will with advertence in the intellect to its malice. The delinquent must be guilty of a grave sin before God and his own conscience.

    Ibid., p. 14


    Quote
    The moral order is composed of all those acts which have the property of rightness or wrongness, so that they can be imputed to the author of the act.

    Ibid., p. 24


    Quote
    The State and Church alike have the right to lay down norms of conduct for the individual. The violation of these norms or laws is a violation of the moral order. If the the law has a penal sanction attached to it, the legislator has deemed the transgression to be a serious violation of the moral order.

    Ibid., p. 24.


    Quote
    It follows that the moral order, and the juridical – including the criminal – order are not separate and distinct. Since the juridical-criminal order is but one part of the moral order, the principles used in the moral order will apply also in the juridical criminal order. The moral order requires that an act be morally imputable to the author of the act if he is to be held responsible for it. The same principle must apply in the juridical-criminal order.

    Ibid., pp. 24-25.


    Quote
    Moral imputability always has reference to the rightness or wrongness of the act. When the action is in conformity with the moral order, or with the norms of morality, it is a good or moral act; it is evil or immoral if it deviates from the norms of morality. It follows that there must be some advertence in the intellect and consent of the will to the goodness or evilness of the action in the performing of the act. If the agent performs an objectively evil act with no advertence to its malice, and with no intention to do evil, the evil cannot be imputed to him.

    Ibid., p. 26.



    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • The quotes in the previous post show that a judgment in the external forum regarding crime is based on a judgment of what is going on inside the mind and will of the delinquent regarding sin.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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  • Fr. John J. McGrath, Comparative Study of Crime and Its Imputability in Ecclesiastical Criminal Law, and in American Criminal Law, 1957, Catholic University of America Press, p. 13.
    For an act to constitute an ecclesiastical crime, it must have the moral species of sin; this does not require judging the internal forum, since the Church punishes only externally verifiable violations.

    Why don't you start a post about this (whatever you are trying to prove here for the SECOND time).

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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  • The quotes in the previous post show that a judgment in the external forum regarding crime is based on a judgment of what is going on inside the mind and will of the delinquent regarding sin.
    So, if YOU think he is THINKING heresy then he is, and therefore whatever he did externally is only icing on the cake to prove what was, "going on inside the mind and will of the delinquent."

    Is that what you think?

    Here is what A.I. thought of your statement (I even feed it your quotes first and told it to go "pre-Vatican II mode"):




    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • So, if YOU think he is THINKING heresy then he is, and therefore whatever he did externally is only icing on the cake to prove what was, "going on inside the mind and will of the delinquent."

    Is that what you think?

    It is this in a nutshell:

    If an ecclesiastical judge gives the verdict that a delinquent is guilty of the delict (crime) of heresy, that judge has moral certitude that the delinquent is guilty of the public sin of heresy.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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  • It is this in a nutshell:

    If an ecclesiastical judge gives the verdict that a delinquent is guilty of the delict (crime) of heresy, that judge has moral certitude that the delinquent is guilty of the public sin of heresy.
    Take this as your starting point for the new post and I will interact with it. 



    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • "If an ecclesiastical judge gives the verdict that a delinquent is guilty of the delict (crime) of heresy, that judge has moral certitude that the delinquent is guilty of the public sin of heresy."


    Google AI

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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  • Google AI
    "According to the 1983 Code of Canon Law..."

    Ick, it smell like poo poo in here.