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Author Topic: 61 year sede-vacantism has already become proximately heretical (leads to EVism)  (Read 10634 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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  • Novus Ordo Watch correctly characterizes Bergoglio as a "professional blasphemer":

    https://novusordowatch.org/2017/06/francis-god-cannot-be-god-without-man/
    Quote
    Alas, blasphemy is neither new nor rare for Francis. He is a professional blasphemer. We need but recall some of his other public acts of blasphemy against God or the Saints, such as his joke about the Most Holy Trinity as “quarreling behind closed doors” while outwardly giving the mere appearance of unity; his frightful claim that “Christ became the devil for us” on the Cross; his happy reception of a Marxist hammer-and-sickle “crucifix” and his dedication of the same to the Blessed Virgin Mary; his suggestion that Jesus Christ sinned and probably had to “apologize” to his parents for staying behind in Jerusalem; his outrageous contention that the Blessed Mother may have entertained blasphemous thoughts about God deceiving her; his repeated lie that St. John the Baptist had doubt as to whether Christ was the true Messiah; and on and on.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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  • As was briefly discussed here, 61 year SVism leads to what could be called "ecclesia-vacantism", and EVism is heretical. Therefore, if not heretical itself, the thesis that the See of Peter has been vacant for 61 years, is at least proximate to heresy. Here's a recap of the syllogism.

    Major: Only a Pope can appoint Bishops to sees/dioceses.
    Minor: SVism says there has been no Pope for 61 years.  
    Conclusion: Therefore, no diocesan Bishop has been appointed for 61 years.

    A closer look at http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/sordb2.html reveals that the Corollary has to be changed to,

    Corollary: There are no diocesan Bishops appointed by any Pope, per 61 year SVism.

    Why? Because that single Bishop, Archbishop Emeritus Bernardino, was only consecrated a Titular in 1958, but appointed only in 1960. Thus, he would have been appointed by, according to sedes, "the manifestly heretical antipope (MHA) John XXIII".

    From: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpinc.html Abp. Benardino only became an Ordinary in December 1960.

    27 Apr 195842.5Ordained BishopTitular Bishop of Prusias ad Hypium
    10 Dec 196045.2AppointedBishop of Temuco, Chile

    How will sede-vacantists evade the conclusion that straight sedevacantism, now in 2019, manifestly leads to EVism and is therefore heretical? A careful reflection shows plainly and without any doubt to any believing Catholic that it is not possible for there to be no Popes indefinitely - otherwise even a 100 or a 1000 year vacancy is possible, and the See could have been vacant since the 11th century or so, like Ibranyi believes. So what is the "term limit" on an interregnum? Plainly that all Bishops appointed to a diocese or an office by the last Pope could not have died off before the new Pope is elected. Also, according to theologians, these Ordinaries have to pass judgment, that the See is declared vacant, before it becomes binding on the Church, and before the process to elect a new Pope.

    So how can this be done? Why didn't sedevacantists write to the earlier Ordinaries and ask them to convene in Council before this happened? You surely had decades to do so, so why didn't you all seize the opportunity before it became late?

    A possible objection may be: well, even those appointed by a manifestly heretical antipope could receive ordinary jurisdiction.

    The problem is, the objection is contrary to one of the sede's own sources for sede-vacantism, namely cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio.

    "each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;" Note the words, "each and all of their ... enactments ... shall be without force and grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone". What follows? That all those appointed by the MHA neither any stable authority, nor any right to rule in any form.

    Text taken from the Sede Site Daily Catholic: http://www.dailycatholic.org/cuмexapo.htm

    Therefore, if the Church requires diocesan Bishops to have continued to be appointed, and She does, the last 6 Popes were really Popes.
    The major is denied since the bishop of Rome is elected.  Theologians agree that in the absence of the College of Cardinals the election can be done by the local Roman clergy or possibly by an imperfect general council.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • The major is denied since the bishop of Rome is elected.  Theologians agree that in the absence of the College of Cardinals the election can be done by the local Roman clergy or possibly by an imperfect general council.
    Heretical ones who -according to you- are not Catholics?
    Looks like you are back to square 1.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Clemens Maria

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  • Scenario: The world is engulfed in a nuclear World War III in which the entire population of the earth is wiped out save for the pope, a visiting auxiliary bishop, and 10 priests along with 300,000 faithful in and around Rome.  The next day the pope dies from his wounds.

    Question: Has the Church defected?

    If the living clergy of Rome elected a pope would it be an illegitimate election?  What if they weren’t sure if there was a living ordinary somewhere in the world? Would the election be illegitimate?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Scenario: The world is engulfed in a nuclear World War III in which the entire population of the earth is wiped out save for the pope, a visiting auxiliary bishop, and 10 priests along with 300,000 faithful in and around Rome.  The next day the pope dies from his wounds.

    Question: Has the Church defected?

    If the living clergy of Rome elected a pope would it be an illegitimate election?  What if they weren’t sure if there was a living ordinary somewhere in the world? Would the election be illegitimate?

    The problem with your theoretical is that you would consider the living clergy of Rome not to have the Catholic faith (and consequently, they are prohibited from valid acceptance of office).

    As regards the "lone bishop in the woods" theory, it is just a pius wish (and certainly not something to build a whole ediface upon, though I understand why you would need to maintain it).

    But instead of going to such improbable/impossible lengths, what's so bad about second-guessing your understanding of OUM and infallibility, so as to avoid such absurd dead-ends?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Clemens Maria

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  • Prediction: no r&r will answer the question.  Prove me wrong.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Prediction: no r&r will answer the question.  Prove me wrong.
    You mean, "No R&R will be dumb enough to step into the trap you want to set for them, and therefore you will pout when told why your "trap" is inapplicable?"
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Clemens Maria

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  • Sean, believe it or not my question is controversial even amongst sedes.  So it is not meant as a trap for the r&r.  In 2011-12 Fr Cekada and John Lane had a debate about whether it was possible for there to be no ordinaries anywhere in the world.  John Lane (a sede) implies that Fr Cekada was a heretic for believing that it is possible.  But despite having participated in many long debates on this topic, no one has ever produced any evidence that Fr Cekada is wrong.  The most common argument is the one XavierSem used.  But there is no evidence that a sede vacante constitutes a defection of a see.  So if the Holy See is in a state of sede vacante it doesn’t thereby defect.  And if there is at least one see that hasn’t defected then neither has the Church as whole defected.  So for the Church to defect, it is going to have to be something more than the vacancies of all the sees.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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  • Sean, believe it or not my question is controversial even amongst sedes.  So it is not meant as a trap for the r&r.  In 2011-12 Fr Cekada and John Lane had a debate about whether it was possible for there to be no ordinaries anywhere in the world.  John Lane (a sede) implies that Fr Cekada was a heretic for believing that it is possible.  But despite having participated in many long debates on this topic, no one has ever produced any evidence that Fr Cekada is wrong.  The most common argument is the one XavierSem used.  But there is no evidence that a sede vacante constitutes a defection of a see.  So if the Holy See is in a state of sede vacante it doesn’t thereby defect.  And if there is at least one see that hasn’t defected then neither has the Church as whole defected.  So for the Church to defect, it is going to have to be something more than the vacancies of all the sees.
    Clemens, not to sidetrack you, but how do you answer the objection that Vatican I says that we will have pastors and teachers, which many interpret as having ordinaries, till the end of time? (Serious question)  
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Clemens, not to sidetrack you, but how do you answer the objection that Vatican I says that we will have pastors and teachers, which many interpret as having ordinaries, till the end of time? (Serious question)  
    Yes, Good Question. But beside the doctrinal issue there are other practical considerations, dearest friends, that suggest to us that the "sede-vacantist solution" is unlikely to be the true explanation, and now nearing 62 years, can be easily seen to be such. That leads us to Syllogism III, from the practical requirement, in the case of the alleged Pope-heretic (let alone 6 alleged to be consecutively such), of "Ordinary Pastors/Shepherds" (in the language of Fr. Suarez cited earlier) to make a binding juridical declaration on the Church first.

    Major: There are now no Ordinaries in the Church, if 61 year-(henceforth SOY-)SVism is true.
    Minor: But Ordinaries are required to pass the binding judgment of the Church in the case of (6 alleged) Pope-heretics.
    Conclusion: Consequently, if SOY-SVism is true, there is no way to elect a new Pope, because that binding judgment must come first.
    Corollary: Such a situation is clearly contrary to the Divine Promise to the Church. Therefore, it's time to move on from SVism.

    Ergo, Q.E.D. again.

    Seriously, I don't mean to be mean; but I can't help laughing at the absurdity of such a thesis, and I regret that some good Catholics apparently take it seriously enough to stake their Faith on it being true, and curiously devote their entire life to believing and teaching it. So imho, It's time to move on, dear friends. With the period of sede-vacantist temptation once and for all seriously put behind us, we could discuss legitimate and real steps to be taken toward resolving the Crisis and the path to Church Restoration that could be taken.

    Now, here's yet another consideration, from another Dogmatic Statement, that should be well known to all of us, being from the Oath against Modernism of His Holiness Pope St. Pius X, on the perpetuity of the Catholic Hierarchy until the end of time: "I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the Charism of Truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the Succession of the Episcopacy from the Apostles." This statement says basically that the Charism of Truth promised by Christ, assured to the Catholic Hierarchy until the end of time, will perpetually reside in the Successors of the Apostles always. Thus, there will always be good Catholic Bishops in the Hierarchy, as for e.g. are saintly Bishops like Bishop Athanasius Schneider, and Bishop Bernard Fellay today. It should also be noted that Vatican I, in passing, speaks of "that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the Holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them" from which it is also evident that ordinary jurisdiction is connected to succession to the place of the Apostles i.e. to episcopal sees. Now, the fourth syllogism.

    Major: The Charism of Truth will always remain among the Successors of the Apostles (from Pope St. Pius X)
    Minor: The Successors of the Apostles are Bishops who have succeeded to the place of the Apostles (Vatican I)
    Conclusion: Consequently, there must, of necessity, be good and faithful Catholic Bishops in the Jurisdictional Hierarchy, now and always.
    Corollary: Such Bishops e.g. today, can reasonably be seen to be Bp. Fellay, Bp. Schneider etc, among others, who, received their authority from the Pope.

    All in all, there is no need to be a sede-vacantist. What is required is to support good Roman Catholic Bishops in the Catholic Hierarchy.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Rev. Father Dom Prosper Gueranger, who was praised by His Holiness Pope Bl. Pius IX, for his invincible defense of Papal Primacy and the Pope's Prerogatives and Privileges, against the Gallican Heretics, from the link given earlier, explains the intimate connection between the Perpetual Successors of St. Peter, and the continual transmission of the Apostolic Mission in the Church until the end of time.

    This same doctrine is clearly stated in a letter written to Pope St. Symmachus by St. Cesarius of Arles,‘ who lived in the fifth century: ‘The episcopate flows from the Blessed Apostle Peter; and consequently, it belongs to your holiness to prescribe to the several Churches the rules which they are to follow.’ This fundamental principle, which St. Leo the Great has so ably and eloquently developed (as we have seen on the feast of the chair at Rome, January 18), this principle, which is taught us by Universal Tradition, is laid down with all possible precision in the magnificent letters, still extant, of Pope St. Innocent I., who preceded St. Leo by several years. Thus he writes to the Council of Carthage, that ‘the episcopate, with all its authority, emanates from the Apostolic See’; to the Council of Milevum, that ‘bishops must look upon Peter as the source whence both their name and their dignity are derived ...

    Controversy is not our object. All we aim at by giving these quotations from the Fathers on the prerogatives of Peter’s Chair, is to excite the faithful to be devoted to it and venerate it. This we have endeavoured to do, by showing them that this Chair is the source of the spiritual authority, which, in its several degrees, rules and sanctifies them. All spiritual authority comes from Peter; all comes from the bishop of Rome, in whom Peter will continue to govern the Church to the end of time. Jesus Christ is the founder of the episcopate; it is the Holy Ghost who establishes bishops to rule the Church; but the mission and the institution, which assign the pastor his flock, and the flock its pastor, these are given by Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost through the ministry of Peter and his Successors.

    How sacred, how divine, is this authority of the keys, which is first given by heaven itself to the Roman Pontiff’; then is delegated by him to the prelates of the Church; and thus guides and blesses the whole Christian world! ...Thus it is that the divine Founder of the Church, who willed that she should be a city seated on a mountain, gave her visibility; it was an essential requisite; for since all were called to enter her pale, all must be able to see her ... Our Lord (we say it reverently) owed this to us; for, on the last day, He will not receive us as His children, unless we shall have been members of His Church, and have lived in union with Him by the ministry of pastors [pastores: Shepherds] lawfully constituted."


    Online Stubborn

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  • In a nutshell, this is the death knell of the R&R position.
    Sorry QVD, that is not a death knell of anything. I've been a trad my whole life and "the entire Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church" are as spotless now as they've been since the beginning and will remain until the end of time.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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  • Scenario: The world is engulfed in a nuclear World War III in which the entire population of the earth is wiped out save for the pope, a visiting auxiliary bishop, and 10 priests along with 300,000 faithful in and around Rome.  The next day the pope dies from his wounds.

    Question: Has the Church defected?

    If the living clergy of Rome elected a pope would it be an illegitimate election?  What if they weren’t sure if there was a living ordinary somewhere in the world? Would the election be illegitimate?
    You do the same thing Lad does - invent an impossible scenario in order to arrive at a conclusion that cannot exist.

    The Church can never defect, this is foundational to the Catholic faith and is not in any way dependent upon any past, present or future physical event or set of circuмstances.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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  • Prediction: no r&r will answer the question.  Prove me wrong.
    I just did.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Clemens Maria

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  • Clemens, not to sidetrack you, but how do you answer the objection that Vatican I says that we will have pastors and teachers, which many interpret as having ordinaries, till the end of time? (Serious question)  
    Pastor Aeturnus (1870): “Therefore,
    • if anyone says that
      • it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that
      • the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy:
      let him be anathema.”

      If there are perpetual successors of Peter then there will always be pastors and teachers.  Does anyone think that sede vacantes prove that there are NOT perpetual successors of Peter? ... I didn’t think so.  Read Van Noort’s section on how we determine who is a Successor of the Apostles.  It is completely dependent on communion with the pope.  So it is the line of Peter which is well-docuмented which proves the apostolic origin of the hierarchy and it is not interrupted by sede vacantes.