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Offline Pax Vobis

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Debating V2
« on: June 22, 2020, 01:16:44 PM »
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  • More novus ordo-ites waking up...
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    https://onepeterfive.com/debating-debate-vatican-ii/
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    Abp. Viganò’s latest open letter continues the vital conversation about the nature of Vatican II and the extreme necessity to properly respond to this “pastoral event.” This conversation must happen openly among the bishops who are courageous enough to face the difficult questions honestly. Instead of a spirit of “dialogue” among the bishops, there has instead reigned a spirit of fear and silence, as any who do not share the “party line” are immediately pilloried by mainstream Catholic media and ostracized by their brethren in the episcopate. Instead, Viganò shows in his disagreement with Schneider the true charity of pastoral zeal that is loving one another with the charity of brotherhood, with honour preventing one another (Rom. 12:10). This is seen when Viganò, who is calumniated everywhere as a crazed, pharisaical maniac, says this about a disagreement with his brother bishop:
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    It seems to me that from this fruitful exchange with my brother, Bishop Athanasius, what emerges is how much both of us have solely at heart the re-establishment of the Catholic Faith as the essential foundation for union in Charity. There is no conflict, no opposition: our zeal springs from and grows in the Eucharistic Heart of Our Lord and returns to it so as to be consumed in love for Him.
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    This is the type of charity lacking among the whole Catholic faithful. But for men such as this, their zeal is in whatever gives God greater glory for the salvation of souls. In this we may truly “compete” with one another in zeal for the Lord. The Apostle exhorts us to compete: Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain (I Cor. 9:24). Yet, in the competition of zeal for the Lord, the saints have the greater glory of God for their goal, not wicked self-aggrandizement. As the Apostle says in another place: Let nothing be done through contention, neither by vain glory: but in humility, let each esteem others better than themselves (Philip. 2:3).
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    Therefore, to the saints, if one man proposes one thing for the glory of God, but another man does something that gives greater glory to God, then the former rejoices to “lose” to the latter, since it gives God greater glory. For men such as Abp. Viganò and Bp. Schneider, all that matters is the glory of God and the salvation of souls. Whether their particular opinion ends up being wrong or right is entirely secondary to this goal. In such a fellowship, there is no room for selfish intransigence — no one is concerned with honor for himself but solely with the honor of God. This exchange clearly shows for the faithful what kind of men these shepherds are, and the faithful would do well to imitate this zeal, charity, and humility.
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    Questioning Vatican II without Pride or Doubt
    If any man is afraid to open the dark door of Vatican II difficulties, we must remember two statements from His Majesty the King: do not be afraid (Jn. 6:20) and the truth will set you free (Jn. 8:32). I think many a Catholic has been raised to simply obey and suppress any rational inclination otherwise as being pride. Obedience is among the highest virtues, being the swiftest route to humility, but grace also builds on nature. Our nature includes reason, and unless one is a religious under obedience, irrational commands should be able to be questioned without pride.


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    Many believe that disobedience to authority is never allowed in any case. If this is questioned, one’s own faith is thrown into doubt. But this kind of faith is a faith without history. Did the Roman citizens lose their faith when John XII was toasting Satan? No, they appealed to the emperor to depose the pope, which he did.
    Did our fathers lose their faith when there were three popes? No, St. Vincent Ferrer told the faithful to disobey the pope he himself believed in, and the crisis was resolved.
    When the wicked Cardinal Richelieu led France to ally with heretics against the Catholics with the support of Urban VIII, did our fathers lose their faith? Or when Clement XIV betrayed the Gospel by suppressing the Jesuits?
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    Our fathers endured in their faith because of what the King had said: In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world (Jn. 16:33). His promise that the gates will not prevail over the Church was made before He was tortured, crucified, and buried in the tomb. Therefore, let us not be afraid to question Vatican II if we can do so without pride and without doubting our faith in the Roman Church. Our fathers faced bƖσσdshɛd and papal schism. Let us not stand manfully on their heritage of faith.
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    Catholic Assent to a Pastoral Council
    Let us close this short essay with a consideration of the dogmatic foundation of this debate about Vatican II. It is indubitably clear: if a man were to say we should debate whether the Immaculate Conception is true, or whether Nicene Orthodoxy is true, such a man would be rightly labeled a heretic and a Protestant. But the debate about Vatican II asserts as its fundamental premise that Vatican II is not a dogmatically binding council. This is the assertion not of the traditionalists, but of the popes and the Council itself, as Schneider observes:
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    The first basic thing to consider is the fact that both Popes of the Council — John XXIII and Paul VI — and Vatican II itself, clearly stated that, unlike all previous Councils, it had neither the aim nor the intention to propose its own doctrine in a definitive and infallible way. Thus, in his address at the solemn opening of the Council, Pope John XXIII said: “The main purpose of this Council is not, therefore, the discussion of one or another theme of the fundamental doctrine of the Church.” He added that the character of the Council’s magisterium would be “predominantly pastoral” (October 11, 1962). For his part, Pope Paul VI said in his address at the last public session of the Council, that Vatican II “made its program” from “the pastoral character” (7 December 1965). Furthermore, in a note made by the Council’s Secretary-General, on November 16, 1964, one reads: “Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding.”
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    The last statement was incorporated in the docuмent Lumen Gentium as an appendix. This accords with what Ratzinger said in 1988 in the context of the Lefebvre consecration controversy:
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    The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular Council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest. [1]
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    But Ratzinger also says in the same address that “it is a necessary task to defend the Second Vatican Council against Msgr. Lefebvre, as valid, and as binding upon the Church.” But even Ratzinger here is speaking of something binding according to not dogma, but “a merely pastoral council.” Here we must distinguish between the binding character of dogma and the binding character of pastoral decisions. The former is absolutely binding with the assent of divine faith. This is something infallible. It cannot be questioned. The later, however, can be questioned, but only with grave cause on the authority of Tradition. The Lumen Gentium appendix places the comment about the binding character in this context:
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    Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding. The rest of the things which the sacred Council sets forth, inasmuch as they are the teaching of the Church’s supreme magisterium, ought to be accepted and embraced by each and every one of Christ’s faithful according to the mind of the sacred Council. The mind of the Council becomes known either from the matter treated or from its manner of speaking, in accordance with the norms of theological interpretation.
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    A binding dogmatic proposition is accepted by faith, but an act of the “supreme magisterium” is accepted by piety (the virtue of giving to elders what is their due). It must be accepted and received with piety, and it cannot be rejected outright. If a Catholic can question such pastoral decisions at all, he can do so only with grave cause and not on his own authority. Ott puts it this way:
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    The ordinary and usual form of Papal teaching activity is not infallible[.] … Nevertheless they are normally to be accepted with an inner assent which is based on the high supernatural authority of the Holy See (assensus religiosus). The so-called silentium obsequiosum, i.e. reverent silence, does not generally suffice. By way of exception, the obligation of inner assent may cease if a competent expert, after a renewed scientific investigation of all grounds, arrives at the positive conviction that the decision rests on an error. [2]
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    Traditionalists must not become guilty of what their critics accuse them of: Protestant-like dissent based on private judgement. As Ott here notes, there is room for removing assent but only on two conditions: the thing from which assent is removed is not dogmatically binding (not infallible), and second, a competent expert removes his assent on the solid ground of a “scientific investigation,” meaning something principled on Tradition and not a man’s own private opinion. Schneider and Viganò are both competent experts as bishops and are objecting on solid grounds of Tradition, not merely their private opinion.
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    William Marshner — hardly a “rad trad pharisee” — puts it another way, saying Vatican II is a change of policy, not a change of doctrine.[3] Policies are not like doctrines. We do not assent to them as true or false. Policies are simply effective or ineffective. When the universal Magisterium calls on a Catholic to change policy, Marshner says it is the duty of the Catholic to “give them a chance.” But now, as Marshner says, “[t]here has been a curiously stubborn persistence of our hierarchy in policies which have demonstrably failed.” This has been the cry of the sheep to their shepherds for decades, and very few shepherds will listen to their sheep in this matter. That is why we must thank God for men like Viganò and Schneider, who are willing to face the uncomfortable realities the sheep are facing. Let us pray for their protection and speak with charity to our brethren who vilify them.
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    Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity (Eph. 4:13–16).

    [1] Cardinal Ratzinger, Address to the Chilean Bishops, July 13, 1988
    [2] Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Baronius, 2018), 10
    [3] William Marshner, “Contemporary Catholicism,” (March 30, 2017)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Debating V2
    « Reply #1 on: June 22, 2020, 08:31:48 PM »
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  • More support for Viganò comes with an open letter of Lefebvre-ordained Claude Barthe, one of the participants of the famous Groupe de Réflexion Entre Catholiques (GREC). He calls Viganò's V2 rejection an historic event.


    read blog-post on marcotosatti.com

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    ABBÉ BARTHE TO VIGANÒ ON THE VATICAN II: YOUR EXAMPLE HELPS US.
    20 Giugno 2020 Pubblicato da Marco Tosatti Lascia il tuo commento --


     
    Marco Tosatti
    Dear friends and enemies of Stilum Curiae, Abbé Claude Barthe, the author of numerous books, including Trouvera-t-il encore la foi sur la terre? Une crise de l’Église, histoire et questions (François-Xavier de Guibert, 2006, 3ème édition) and La Messe de Vatican II. Dossier historique (Via Romana, 2018), has read the declarations of Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò on the theme of the Second Vatican Council, and has sent us this open letter. Happy reading.

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    A Historic Event: The Critique of Vatican II by Archbishop Viganò

    Open Letter of Father Claude Barthe

    Allow me to respond to Your Excellency’s “Excursus on Vatican II and Its Consequences” (Chiesa e post concilio, 9 June 2020), in order to emphasize, in all modesty, its great interest for the Church.
    Permit me to summarize it in five points:

    1) Vatican II contains texts “in clear opposition to the doctrine expressed in the Tradition.”
    Your attack on Vatican II is aimed at the following:
    – That which is in direct disagreement with preceding doctrine, such as the religious freedom of the declaration Dignitatis Humanae and the foundations of the new relationship with non-Christian religions of the declaration Nostra Aetate (we could also add the decree on ecuмenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, n.3, which introduces the innovation of the idea of the “imperfect communion” that those separated from Christ and from Church are said to have with Christ and the Church,);
    – The ambiguities that can be used in the sense of truth or error, such as the term “subsistit” in n. 8 of the Constitution Lumen Gentium: “The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church” instead of “The Church of Christ is the Catholic Church.”

    2) These doctrinal distortions are at the origin of the errors that followed them – the proof of the “spirit of the Council.”
    You explain that the deviations or the most harmful elements for the faith of Christians that mark the post-conciliar period (you cite the Abu Dhabi Declaration, but also the Day in Assisi, the liturgical reform, the use of collegiality) have their origins in these distortions.
    Further, from this text it clearly emerges that the concept of the “spirit of the Council” confirms the innovative specificity of this assembly, because “there was never talk of a “spirit of the Council of Nicea” or the “spirit of the Council of Ferrara-Florence,” even less the “spirit of the Council of Trent,” just as we never had a “post-conciliar” era after Lateran IV or Vatican I.”

    3) These distortions cannot be corrected.
    The efforts to correct the excesses of the Council, you say, are futile:
    • One such option is to take the insufficient path of the “hermeneutic of continuity.” Much less is this possible since this hermeneutic is not a return to the preceding magisterium but represents the search for a third way between innovation and tradition. Benedict XVI, in his discourse to the Roman Curia of December 22, 2005, proposed a “hermeneutic of renewal in continuity” in opposition to the “hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture”; but by this latter statement he focused both on “traditionalists” as well as “progressives,” who both hold that Vatican II made a certain rupture.
    • Or, one calls upon the Magisterium to “correct” the errors of Vatican II. You rightly show that this project, “even with the best of intentions, threatens the foundation of the Catholic edifice.” In reality, opposing the magisterium of tomorrow against that of today, which in turn contradicts the magisterium of yesterday, would end up meaning that no magisterial act would ever be definitive.
    Therefore, in a further statement made on June 15 (Chiesa e post concilio), you are of the opinion that a future pope “could annul the entire council.”
    If I were to be allowed to amplify your analysis, I would say that the only solution for contradicting a preceding act with a magisterial act is to note that the act in question is not magisterial in its entirety. For example, Pastor Aeternus of Vatican I in 1870 annulled the decree Frequens of the Council of Constance in 1417, which purported to institutionalize the superiority of a Council over the pope. This annulment was possible because the Holy See had never recognized the dogmatic value of Frequens. In the same way, with Vatican II we find ourselves in the same situation as Frequens, because the organs of the Council itself (Dz 4351) and all of its successive interpretations held that this Council was of a merely “pastoral” nature, that is, not dogmatic. In fact, the great way out of the present magisterial crisis is to come out of what is called the “pastoral” and to enter once again into dogmatics: that the Pope alone or the pope and the bishops united to him express themselves magisterially and no longer “pastorally.”

    4) – The present pontificate is clearly paradoxical.
    You write: “What we have for years heard enunciated, vaguely and without clear connotations, from the highest Throne, we then find elaborated in a true and proper manifesto in the supporters of the present Pontificate.”
    This is what many who have tried to give a pious interpretation to the controversial texts of Vatican II feel: they recognize that this is not possible because of the somewhat authentic application that is being done today. The texts of this pontificate are the culmination of the controversial points of the council, such as for example the erroneous recognition of the rights of conscience in the exhortation Amoris Laetitia, which in n. 301 affirms that in certain circuмstances adultery is not a sin.

    5) A duty of conscience therefore weighs on the prelates of the Church who are aware of this situation.
    Speaking of yourself, you say: “Just as I honestly and serenely obeyed questionable orders sixty years ago, believing that they represented the loving voice of the Church, so today with equal serenity and honesty I recognize that I have been deceived. Being coherent today by persevering in error would represent a wretched choice and would make me an accomplice in this fraud.”
    Some prelates, above all after the last synodal assemblies, have been led to trace the consequences of the present situation back to their causes, which were established half a century ago. Your example and your encouragement can help them to express, in conscience, for the good of the Church, their disagreement with these causes: the defective points of Vatican II.


    Translated by Giuseppe Pellegrino @pellegrino2020

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