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Author Topic: 61 year sede-vacantism has already become proximately heretical (leads to EVism)  (Read 10607 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Ordinary jurisdiction has 2 components - material office and spiritual authority.  The Cardinals, bishops, and priests of new-rome certainly hold the material offices, so one could argue that ordinary jurisdiction exists.  The spiritual side is the only part that is (mostly) lacking, due to heresy.  One could also argue that certain Bishops/Cardinals *want* to be orthodox and are merely material heretics, who may see their errors in due time. But such a situation existed during Arianism too, so it’s not the first time in Church history.  To say that all ordinary jurisdiction is gone would be extreme and unproven. 

Offline Struthio

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If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. (Matt 24:26)

That's highly pertinent in our times. Given that the abominatio desolationis (Matt 24:15) can be marveled at in all once holy and now defiled places.


Offline Stubborn

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The problem here is less about whether supplied jurisdiction exists (it clearly does) and more about whether the Church can exist without any ordinary jurisdiction at all.
jerm, this is backwards thinking because it is foundational that the Church is indefectible everything else always depends upon this, not the other way around. Pax has it completely correct.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Comrade

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.All those who follow/accept V2 are heretics.  Now maybe they don't realize their error fully (+Francis obviously does) and maybe they are so confused as to not be formal heretics (i.e. knowingly obstinate) but they are at least material heretics (i.e. unknowingly in error).
Pax Vobis,

Are you claiming that Francis realizes his error fully?

Online songbird

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I see by his fruits that he is in full knowledge of his errors.  He has no sacrament of orders when he claimed priesthood. Sacrament changed.  He says a new Order mass(mess), completely destroyed. You will know them by their (bad) fruits.



Offline MiserereMei

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Remember the Dubias. No formal response.

Offline Bellato

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An Antipope could still make appointments to vacant sees if the common good is served since the act would be supplied by the Church.   

This (the common good) seems very obvious in the Eastern rites, where they still have valid episcopal orders, unlike the Latin rite where those orders have been in doubt since 1968.   

The appointments of the eastern bishops would be supplied by the Church, since the common good is served by having valid bishops who can then provide validly ordained priests who then provide valid masses, confessions, etc. to their flocks.   

The eastern rite bishops are certainly successors of the apostles as the formal succession has been transmitted and the act supplied by the Church.

Offline Aristotl

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Here is an interesting point Members of the Signatura and the ROman ROTA hold jurisdiction at the time of an interregnum. By the way, Anthony Chicada and others say the Roman ROTA is a made-up word. That is BS and anyone who ever spent time in a seminary prior to Vatican II knows this as factual. Let's find a member prior to anti-Pope JohnXXIII.


Offline Arnaldo

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You don't know what you're talking about.  You've obviously never spent more than 10 minutes researching this topic.

It's not I who doesn't understand what they're talking about.  It's you.

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Old Code of Canon Law 1917 (i.e. OC)
New Code of Canon Law 1983 (i.e. NC)
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1.  The salvation of souls is the highest law  (NC 1752).  The sacraments are on account of men.
Comment - This is self-explanatory.  The Church exists to provide grace, not create red tape.

The Church supplies jurisdiction when the law of the Church says it supplies jurisdiction.  There are three cases in which the Church supplies.  1) When it is commonly believed that the cleric possesses jurisdiction/faculties, but doesn't for whatever reason. 2) When there is positive and probable doubt that the priest's faculties apply in a particular circuмstance, but in reality don't.  3) In danger of death.

The first two only apply to clerics who possess, or who are believed to possess, jurisdiction.    Common error and positive and probable doubt do no apply to clerics who admit they lack jurisdiction/faculties.  Only in danger of death does the Church supply the faculties to hear confession to priests with no canonical mission.


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2.  In common error or in probable doubt, the Church supplies jurisdiction (OC 209...NC 144).
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§144. In factual or legal common error and in positive and probable doubt of law or of fact, the Church supplies executive power of governance for both the external and internal forum.
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Comment - There is probable doubt because Quo Primum commands all clerics to use the old rites, while new-rome only allows the old rites if the new rites are accepted.  This condition by new-rome is illegal and sinful, so those priests who continue saying the old rites are protected by law, and have probable jurisdiction to follow such law and avoid sin.

That's now how probable doubt works.  See page 212-213.  http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/books/Miaskiewicz--Canon%20209.pdf



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3.  Danger of death (both temporal and spiritual).  Those in "spiritual danger" can request sacraments/mass from any priest.  (OC 882 and 2252); (NC 976 and 1357)


Danger of death refers to danger of physical death.  Don't mix canons that refer to common error and positive and probable doubt, with canons that refer to danger of death.  These are three distinct causes of supplied jurisdiction, and they must be considered separately.


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976 Even though a priest lacks the faculty to hear confessions, he absolves validly and licitly any penitents whatsoever in danger of death from any censures and sins, even if an approved priest is present.

Right.


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Comment - This is also self-explanatory.  Who defines "danger of death"?  The penitent, because one never knows the hour of death, so if the penitent is in mortal sin, they can request confession as a matter of necessity.


You can't fool God.  If there is no danger of physical death, the Church does not supply jurisdiction to a priest without faculties


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4.  Even censured priests can provide sacraments for "any just cause"  (OC 2261...NC 1335)....(OC 878...NC 967 & 970).
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Can. 1335 If a censure prohibits the celebration of sacraments or sacramentals or the placing of an act of governance, the prohibition is suspended whenever it is necessary to care for the faithful in danger of death. If a latae sententiae censure has not been declared, the prohibition is also suspended whenever a member of the faithful requests a sacrament or sacramental or an act of governance; a person is permitted to request this for any just cause.

(Paraphrasing of multiple codes NC 967 & 970)  Ordinaries and superiors are not to restrict jurisdiction. If the priest is suitable and the good of the faithful requires his services this jurisdiction cannot be refused to him. Clearly traditional priests should in justice receive personal jurisdiction and that everywhere.


This canon lifts the censure of a cleric with an undeclared excommunication, and places him in the condition that he was before he incurred the censure.  The purpose of this canon is to allow a priest who knows he has incurred a secret censure to administer the sacraments, without a scruple, if he is approached.  But this canon does not give faculties to a priest who never possessed them in the first place.   A priest who never possessed canonical mission does not receive it by virtue of this canon.


If you value your eternal salvation you better put some time into studying this topic, rather than relying on what is written by priest without canonical mission.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Your view of the sacraments is too legalistic and your interpretation of canon law too rigorous.  The Church/canon law exist to facilitate grace; grace is not meant to have red tape around it.

Offline Pax Vobis

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There are three cases in which the Church supplies.  1) When it is commonly believed that the cleric possesses jurisdiction/faculties, but doesn't for whatever reason. 2) When there is positive and probable doubt that the priest's faculties apply in a particular circuмstance, but in reality don't.  3) In danger of death.
You forget the 4th case, which is most pertinent to Traditionalism:  Jurisdiction is supplied when needed by the faithful, for their cause, as they deem necessary.
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Canon 1357.1 - "...if it is burdensome for a penitent"
Canon 1335 - "a person can request (sacraments) for any just cause"
Canons 967/970 - "...for the good of the faithful"
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The point being, that it is the FAITHFUL who decide if an emergency situation exists; it is the FAITHFUL who can request sacraments from any priest; it is the FAITHFUL's good which is the litmus test for supplied jurisdiction. 
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The purpose of this canon is to allow a priest who knows he has incurred a secret censure to administer the sacraments, without a scruple, if he is approached.  But this canon does not give faculties to a priest who never possessed them in the first place.   A priest who never possessed canonical mission does not receive it by virtue of this canon.
All valid priests have a "canonical mission" by the very fact that they are priests.  Faculties are just to specify WHERE this canonical mission is to happen.  All valid priests have jurisdiction/faculties in potentia.  The sacrament of ordination's obligation (i.e. to fulfill the priesthood's duties...to offer mass & provide the sacraments) overwrites the legal red tape of canon law, which exists to SERVE the priesthood, not limit its purpose.