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Author Topic: 61 year sede-vacantism has already become proximately heretical (leads to EVism)  (Read 10588 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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  • Do you believe Bishop Fellay is a successor of the Apostles?
    Great question.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Do you believe Bishop Fellay is a successor of the Apostles?
    He possesses material apostolicity (ie., episcopal continuity), but not formal apostolicity (mission/territorial jurisdiction).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Do you believe Bishop Fellay is a successor of the Apostles?
    Hi Bellator Dei. It wasn't XavierSem who said what you quoted, but Rev. Fr. Stanislaus Woywod was being quoted by me in the relevant portion: https://archive.org/details/newcanonlaw00woywuoft/page/n4 Just to clarify that.

    Secondly, Bishop Fellay said: "As a result of the Pope’s act, during the Holy Year, we will have ordinary jurisdiction" https://damselofthefaith.wordpress.com/2015/12/01/ordinary-jurisdiction-for-the-year-of-mercy-bishop-fellay-says/ So Bishop Fellay's episcopacy was confirmed by the Pope, upon which confirmation he would have received Ordinary Jurisdiction, and become a Successor of the Apostles.

    If any sede bishop goes to the Pope, recognizes him, and asks to similarly receive faculties and ordinary jurisdiction from him, two things could happen. Either (1) The Pope would likewise confer faculties on him, at which time he would become a Successor of the Apostles, made so by the Successor of St. Peter; or, for some reason, (2) the Pope may choose not to do so, and then no ordinary jurisdiction will be conferred, since by divine right, as Pope Pius XII taught, it falls to the Pope to confer it. Personally, I think (2) is quite unlikely, but we'll come to know only when some sede bishops give up sedevacantism and recognize the last 6 Popes have been Popes.

    As I was mentioning to Yeti, for those who still dispute the principal premise of this thread, a second syllogism could be constructed from what Theologians teach about Formal Apostolic Succession. For e.g.

    Quote
    The apostolic succession can be defined as: the public, legitimate, solemn and never interrupted elevation [suffectio] of persons in the place of the Apostles to govern and nourish the Church. (Cercia, I, p. 223) Succession may be material or formal. Material succession consists in the fact that there have never been lacking persons who have continuously been substituted for the Apostles ; formal succession consists in the fact that these substituted persons truly enjoy authority derived from the Apostles and received from him who is able to communicate it. (Herrmann, Theologiæ Dogmaticæ Institutiones, n. 282.)

    Quote
    Obviously a man does not become a genuine successor to the apostles merely by arrogating to himself the title of “bishop,” or by carrying on in some fashion a function once performed by the apostles. Neither is it enough for a man merely to possess some one, individual power, say for example, the power of orders. - The power of orders can be acquired even illicitly, and once acquired can never be lost. - What is required for genuine apostolic succession is that a man enjoy the complete powers (i.e., ordinary powers, not extraordinary) of an apostle. He must, then, in addition to the power of orders, possess also the power of jurisdiction. Jurisdiction means the power to teach and govern. - This power is conferred only by a legitimate authorization and, even though once received, can be lost again by being revoked. [Christ's Church, Monsignor G Van Noort]

    Second Syllogism: The Theological Proof from the fact that Ordinary Jurisdiction is required for formal Apostolic Sucession:

    Major: Ordinary Jurisdiction is required for Apostolic Succession.
    Minor: The Catholic Church cannot lose Her Apostolic Succession.
    Conclusion: Therefore, the Catholic Church cannot lose Ordinary Juridiction.
    Corollary: And therefore it is demonstrated Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction will always exist in the Roman Catholic Church.

    Ergo, Quod Erat Demonstrandum. Q.E.D.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • And here's Rev. Stanislaus Woywod's commentary on the Code of Canon Law for anyone inclined to dispute the Major Premise.

    “210. The bishops are the successors of the Apostles and are placed by Divine law over the individual churches, which they govern with ordinary authority under the authority of the Roman Pontiff. They are freely appointed by the Pope. If some college has received the right to elect the bishop, Canon 321 shall be observed, which requires the absolute majority of votes of all those who have the right to vote. (Canon 329.)  
     
     213. Every candidate to the episcopate, even those elected, presented or designated by the civil government, needs the canonical provision or institution in order to be the lawful bishop of a vacant diocese. The only one to institute a bishop is the Roman Pontiff. (Canon 332.)”


    I agree with your ultimate conclusion, that a 61-year interregnum is theologically impossible, because we would be obliged to conclude the hierarchy has vanished, with no possible way for restoration.

    In that case, the Church has defected, and the faith of all Catholics from the time of the Apostles until today has been a fraud.
    The dogmas fall like dominos, and all mankind should despair.

    I also believe you are correct in asserting that if you can have a 61-year interregnum, you can have a 1,000-year interregnum (which once again makes our holy religion one gigantic fraud).

    The sedevacantist lays the axe to the very roots of the faith.

    But one minor clarification regarding the reservation of episcopal appointments to the Roman Pontiff (per your Woywood quote):

    While this is the current law of the Church (per 1917 CIC), it is ecclesiastical law, and not divine law.  Consequently, this reservation can be removed or nullified in necessity (eg., St. Eusebius of Samasota passing through lands ravaged by Arianism, and consecrating bishops for them; clandestine consecrations behind the Iron Curtain; more recently during the modernist crisis).

    The proof is that the reservation of episcopal consecrations in the Eastern Catholic Churches were performed without recourse to Rome for the first thousand years, and not reserved to the Holy See until the 11th century.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Same question, a simple yes or no will suffice...

    Do you believe Bishop Fellay is a successor to the Apostles?

    Of course, you are aware that your question does not avail itself of a simple yes or no answer, and are counting on the stupidity of your readers to misconstrue my distinction as an evasion (which shows you are not really interested in truth).

    Bishop Fellay is materially a successor to the Apostles, but not formally.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Do you believe Bishop Williamson is a successor to the Apostles?
    Materially or formally?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Bishop Fellay either is, or is not a successor to the Apostles.  No need for distinctions, it's really that simple.

      
    If you really are this inept, you should not be posting on this subject.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    I agree with your ultimate conclusion, that a 61-year interregnum is theologically impossible, because we would be obliged to conclude the hierarchy has vanished, with no possible way for restoration.

    In that case, the Church has defected, and the faith of all Catholics from the time of the Apostles until today has been a fraud.
    The dogmas fall like dominos, and all mankind should despair.

    I also believe you are correct in asserting that if you can have a 61-year interregnum, you can have a 1,000-year interregnum (which once again makes our holy religion one gigantic fraud).

    The sedevacantist lays the axe to the very roots of the faith.
    Thus far, we agree, Sean Johnson. But regarding any Bishop consecrated, for e.g., under imminent and urgent necessity, behind the Iron Curtain, as soon as the opportunity presents itself, both the Consecrator Bishops and the Consecrated Bishop-elect must present themselves to the Roman Pontiff for appointment or confirmation; or ask for it by letters, and so on. The Pope may either tell them it was rash and wrong to presume to confer consecration, and in that case, they cannot exercise episcopal orders, if there was was no necessity. But if there was a real necessity, and the Pope confers jurisdiction, at such a point the Bishop is appointed to the vacant see. The same is true, for e.g. for Patriarchs. And the failure to observe this was one of the causes of the original schism with Photius, as Pope Pius IX also mentions: "We commanded that a synod composed exclusively of bishops elect the patriarch. However, We forbade the man elected to be enthroned until he received a letter of confirmation from the Apostolic See. We ordered bishops to be elected in the following way: all the bishops of the province were to gather in a synod and recommend three suitable churchmen to the Apostolic See. If it were not possible for all the bishops to come to the synod, the recommendation could be made by a synod of at least three diocesan bishops together with the patriarch, if those absent indicated their triple recommendation in writing. When this is done, the Roman pontiff will choose one of those recommended and put him in charge of the vacant see. We declared that We were certain that the bishops would recommend worthy and suitable men so that We would never have to select someone different from those recommended to be in charge of the vacant see." https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quartu.htm

    The Council of Trent also said the duty of appointing bishops is a proper power of the Roman Pontiff's Office. In the early ages, as Pope Pius VI explains, the Popes, on account of difficulties of travel etc, used to delegate their power to sub-ordinates. But since the time of Trent, their proper power has been reserved to them. In case of emergencies, bishops should present themselves to the Pope as soon as they can after it. Some excerpts: "today the Pope as a duty of his office appoints bishops for each of the churches, and no lawful consecration may take place in the entire Catholic Church without the order of the Apostolic See (Trent, session 24, chap. 1, de Reformat.).19. His letter to Us, far from relieving his plight, worsens it, and must be called schismatic. For that letter makes a mere pretense of establishing communion with Us, since it does not even mention the confirmation which We must give ... Therefore, instead of accepting him as their pastor, the people should reject him with abhorrence as an intruder ...So “he is an imitator of the devil and does not stand firm in the truth, but makes bad use of the appearance and name of the office he has attained,” as St. Leo the Great wrote to some Egyptian bishops concerning a similar intruder ...As regards Cardinal de Lomenie, he tried to excuse himself for taking the oath in a letter to Us last November 25. He stated that it was not to be regarded as mental assent and claimed that he was quite undecided on the question of ordaining bishops who had been elected ... As to his indecision about ordaining those elected, in answer We commanded him not to ordain new bishops for any reason whatsoever, and so join new rebels to the church. For the right of ordaining bishops-belongs only to the Apostolic See, as the Council of Trent declares" https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius06/p6charit.htm

    Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Do you believe Bishop Williamson is a successor to the Apostles?

    No, not yet. His Excellency can easily become one, though, in at least 3 ways that come to mind: (1) if Bp. Williamson himself goes to the Successor of Peter, and asks to receive Ordinary Jurisdiction from him, and obtains it. (2) If the Resistance is regularized. (3) If Bp. Williamson or other Resistance Bishops join a normalized Society of St. Pius X, whose Bishops, for the reason mentioned earlier, in the Damsel of the Faith link, now have it. 

    As Rev. Father Dom Prosper Gueranger, the great Theologian and eminent Liturgist, specially praised by His Holiness Pope Bl. Pius IX, explains it, Jesus Christ Himself Our Lord and God has set up His Church in this way, so that Rome may be the sole source of pastoral power in the Universal Church: "Rome was, more evidently than ever, the sole source of pastoral power.

    We, then, both priests and people, have a right to know whence our pastors have received their power. From whose hand have they received the keys? If their mission come from the apostolic see, let us honour and obey them, for they are sent to us by Jesus Christ, who has invested them, through Peter, with His own authority. If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them, for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers.https://reginamag.com/saint-peters-chair-at-antioch/

    Sede bishops, therefore, on contemplating and realizing these facts, which traditional Theologians have always taught, should retract the error of 61+ year sede-vacantism; hasten and hurry to recognize the Pope, and receive ordinary power of jurisdiction from his hands; knowing and believing the Vatican I Dogma that there will be Perpetual Successors to St. Peter in the Roman Catholic Church, which Dogma is word-for-word contrary to, and incompatible with, an indefinite interregnum.

    Without Perpetual Successors to St. Peter, the Catholic Church would lose Apostolicity, and Divine and Catholic Faith assures us that that is impossible.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • From the old SSPX (relative to consecrating bishops in necessity without papal permission):

    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_September/The_1988_Consecrations.htm


    B. A Word on Epikeia
    That which is called by the Church "necessary" epikeia, or "epikeia without recourse to the superior"17 rests upon the four principles cited above in this second part of our theological study (pp.18,19). Epikeia is being taken here in its broad and correct sense in which it is to be identified with equity, which is the highest form of justice (ST, II-II, Q.120, A.l). This true epikeia is a virtue concerning precisely “duties arising in particular cases out of the ordinary” (ST, II-II, Q.80), and which therefore comes to be identified in Canon Law with the norms of “cessation ‘in itself’ of the law in a particular case” and of “causes excusing“ observance of the law and/or obedience to the lawmaker.18  [Epikeia (or equity) is a favorable and just interpretation not of the law itself but of the mind of the legislator, who is presumed to be unwilling to bind his subjects in extraordinary cases where the observance of the law would cause injury or impose too severe a burden. – Ed.]
    In his Dictionary of Canon Law, Naz writes that of St. Thomas Aquinas:
    Quote
    …the coming into play of epikeia is subordinate to the existence of a right. In fact, in certain cases, the law loses its power to bind – as where its application would be contrary to the common good or to natural law – and in such a case it is not in the power of the legislator to bind or to oblige.19..There is a place for epikeia because the will of the legislator either is not able or is not bound to impose the application of the law to the case in question.20
    The state of necessity in the case of Archbishop Lefebvre is precisely the case in which the lawmaker cannot impose the application of the law because it has become, by force of particular circuмstances, contrary to the common good and to the divine natural and positive law. On his part, under the pressure of a precept of divine natural and positive law, “…the subject [e.g., Archbishop Lefebvre – Ed.] not only may, but he is bound not to observe the law, whether he asks or does not ask for permission to do so from the superior.”21
    Regarding seeking permissions from the superior, Suarez explains (speaking precisely of the pope) that here, “it is not a question of interpreting the will of the superior, but [a question] of his power” in order to know what is not necessary to ask the superior, because it is permitted to make use of “doctrinal rules” or “principles of theology and law,”22 given that “one knows with more certitude the power [of the superior] which is not free, rather than his will, which is free [emphasis added].”23For that reason the subject, having prudently examined the circuмstances and been informed by the “doctrinal rules” or by the “principles of theology and law” that is “beyond the power of legislator”24 to bind anyone to respect the law when it causes grave harm to so many souls, and that to obey in such a case would be “evil and a sin,”25 he may not - indeed, he must not - submit to the law or to the command“on his own authority,”26 “by his own judgment.”27 Hence, by his own initiative, he refuses submission “without recourse to the superior,”28 that is to say, without any dispensation or approval on the part of the said superior. The reason, writes Suarez, is:
    Quote
    that in such a case the authority of the superior cannot have any effect; indeed, even if he were to will that the subject, after having had recourse to him, should observe the law, the latter would not be able to obey him because he must obey God rather than man and hence in such a case its is out of place (“impertinens”) to ask for permission.29
    Such would be the case of the wife who, faced by the grave necessity of her children, does not need the consent of her husband to fulfil her duty to supply, and even were her husband to forbid her to do so, she would not owe him obedience, and hence it would be out of place to ask for his consent, knowing him to be hostile.
    Asking if the danger of harm to oneself or to others excuses from obeying, Suarez replies that
    Quote
    …one does not presume in the lawmaker that he has the will to bind in such case and even if he had, it would be without effect. On this point all doctors are agreed who treat of obedience and of laws.30
    For the reason, when it is established for certain that the law in a particular circuмstance has become unjust or contrary to another command or virtue which is more binding, then the law ceases to oblige and on his own initiative he can disregard the law without having recourse to the superior,31given that the law in that case could not be observed without sin nor could the superior bind his subject to respect it without sin.32
    There remains, however, the duty to avoid scandal of neighbor, and for that reason every opportune and humble means must be attempted with regard to the Supreme Pontiff. But if a humble insistence serves no purpose, then it is necessary to exercise a manly and courageous liberty.2

    C. REFUTATION OF MORE FALSE OBJECTIONS
    Hence, it is not true that “it is only permitted to use epikeia if the legislator is inaccessible,” as we read in the tract, Du sacre episcopal contra la volonté du Pape(p.49), published by the Fraternity of St. Peter. What it says is true for epikeia in the strict or improper sense, but not for epikeia in the broad and proper sense. In the case of its improper (or popular) sense, epikeia persumes that authority – out of its kindness – does not wish to oblige, although it has the power to do so and hence, if the lawmaker is accessible, there is the duty to ask him, given that it is a question of “his will which is free” (Suarez, cit.). On the other hand, epikeia in the broad and proper sense concerns those cases in which authority cannot oblige, even if it wishes to do so, and the subject finds himself in the moral impossibility of obeying. Hence, epikeia is “necessary” (Suarez), and therefore recourse to the legislator is per se not obligatory. Indeed, it must be left out whenever it is foreseen that the superior would try to make his command binding despite the harm to the person making the request or to anyone else. In such a case, in fact, we are dealing not with the will of the superior, but his “power, which is not free” (Suarez, cit.).
    Even less true is what we read in De Rome et d’ailleurs that a “state of necessity” arises when it is impossible to contact the superior, which presupposes a certain urgency in the decision to be taken.34 This is true for epikeia in the improper or popular sense, but even then it is true only in part because the state of necessity does not arise from the impossibility of contacting the superior, but it exists independently of that impossibility of contacting him, and it persists independently of an eventual refusal from the superior.
    To settle the question, we quote Fr. Tito Centi, O.P.:
    Quote
    Moralists have sought to fix the criteria to be laid down for the application of epikeia. In substance, these criteria come down to the three following cases: a) when in a particular situation, the prescriptions of the positive law are in opposition to a superior law which binds one to regard higher interests [i.e., epikeia in the proper sense]; b) when, for reason of exceptional circuмstances, submission to the positive law would be too burdensome, without there resulting a good proportionate to the sacrifice being demanded; c) when, without becoming evil as in the first case and without imposing an unjustified heroism as in the second case, the observance of the positive law runs into special and unforeseen difficulties which render it, as it turns out, harder than it should have been according to the intention of the legislator.35
    The grave spiritual necessity of many souls comes under the first case "a)" above, the case of positive law which by the force of extraordinary circuмstances becomes "evil" because "it is in opposition to a superior law binding one to regard higher interests" (i.e., epikeia in the proper sense - Ed.). The authors of the tract, on the contrary, like the writer of the article in the above-mentioned publication, seem to admit only the second and the third cases, "b)" and "c)" (i.e., epikeia in the improper or popular sense), which have nothing to do with the case of Archbishop Lefebvre. In the first case "a)," which is the case of Archbishop Lefebvre, epikeia coincides with equity, and, hence involves the moral impossibility of obeying and is, as we have already seen, a right [besides being a duty]. On the other hand, in the second and third cases noted in "b)" and "c)," epikeia is simply identified with clemency or moderation in the application of laws and in the exercise of authority.18
    We are in exceptional circuмstances and, therefore, must ascend to higher principles which are not preached every day and which, therefore, are unknown to many, but which, nevertheless, are able to be found succinctly summarized in any treatise on the general principles of law or moral theology. Thus for example, in the Institutiones Morales Alphonsianae of Fr. Clement Marc we read:
    Quote
    A place is given to epikeia whenever the law makes itself harmful or too burdensome. In the first case [i.e., harmful], the superior really could not oblige and hence epikeia is necessary [(§174) which is the case as it concerns us here - Ed.].
    In Regarding Principles of Moral Theology (III, n.199), Noldin says:
    Quote
    It is said that the purpose of the law ceases "contraire" [through contrary custom - Ed.] when its observation is harmful. If the purpose of the law in a particular case ceases "contraire," the law ceases [to oblige]. The reason is that if the purpose of the law ceases "contraire," then one has the right to use epikeia.
    Finally, any manual explaining the principles of Canon Law deals with the cessation "ab intrinseco" of the law, that is to say, with the law that ceases to oblige out of the simple fact that it is in such-and-such a case harmful, and not because the lawmaker decrees that it should cease, or grants a dispensation from it. Such is exactly the case of the state of necessity, which is the strongest reason excusing one from obedience and strict observance of the law.36 This is especially true when this state of necessity arises from the duty, rooted in one's state, to help many souls in grave spiritual necessity, because "the salvation of souls is, for spiritual society, the ultimate end towards which all its laws and institutions are oriented."16 This is true for the entire hierarchy of the Church, top to bottom.

    D. CONCLUSION
    The conclusion of our study is that either one denies the state of necessity - the way chosen by the Vatican - or, if one admits there is a crisis, then one must approve the action of Archbishop Lefebvre. His decision, no matter how out of the ordinary it may seem, must be judged in relation to the out-of-the-ordinary situation in which it was carried out. Therefore, "it is necessary to judge [it] on the basis of higher principles than ordinary laws" (ST, II-II, Q.54, A.4). From these principles which we have laid out over the two parts of this theological study, it follows that:

    The fact that the Vatican has denied there is any state of necessity does not annul the grave necessity in which so many souls are presently to be found. Rather, its denials confirm that this state of necessity is, at least for the time being, without any hope of relief from the Holy See. For that reason, to the authors of Du sacre episcopal contre la volonté du Pape who object that "St. Eusebius [of Samosata) acted without the pope's consent but not against the pope's consent, " we reply that only a question of fact is at stake, not of principle. We concede that St. Eusebius was not faced with the "No" of a pope who promoted and favored Arianism, and demanded respect for laws which would have deprived of help souls placed in grave spiritual necessity. But, had St. Eusebius found himself in that position, he would have had to follow the moral principles recalled above and to fulfil, not "against" the pope's "No" but despite the pope's "No," the most serious duty of charity laid upon his episcopacy by the grave and general necessity of souls.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Where might an "inept" Catholic, such as myself, find this teaching of the Church?
    Such a one might begin in the old Catholic Encyclopedia under “Apostolicity,” which will introduce him to formal vs material apostolicity (with only the former possessing mission/jurisdiction, and therefore being successors to the Apostles).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • More from the old SSPX against claims by the FSSP that episcopal consecration is reserved to the pope by divine law:


    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_July/The_1988_Consecrations.htm


    History confirms that the state of necessity extended not only the duties of bishops, but also their power of jurisdiction. Dom Grea whose attachment to the pope is above all suspicion testifies (De l’Eglise et de sa divine consitution, vol. I) that not only at the beginning of Christianity did the "necessity of the Church and the Gospel" demand that the power of the episcopal order be exercised in all its fullness without jurisdictional limitations, but that in successive ages extraordinary circuмstances required" even more exceptional and more extraordinary manifestations" of episcopal power (ibid., p.218) in order "to apply a remedy to the current necessity of the Christian people" (ibid. and ƒƒ.), for whom there was no hope of aid on the part of the legitimate pastors nor from the Pope. In such circuмstances, in which the common good of the Church is also at stake, the jurisdictional limitations vanish and "that which is universal" in episcopal power "comes directly to the aid of souls" (ibid., p.218):
    Quote
    Thus in the 4th century St. Eusebius of Samosata is seen passing through the Oriental Church devastated by the Arians and ordaining Catholic Bishops for them without having any special jurisdiction over them" (op. cit. p.218).
    Palazzini recalls that:
    Quote
    ...today jurisdiction [over a diocese] is conferred [upon bishops] directly and expressly by the Pope…Formerly, however, it used to derive more indirectly from the Vicar of Christ as if from itself it flowed from the Pope onto those bishops, who were in union and peace with the Roman Church, mother and head of all churches [emphasis added].40
    Jurisdiction "as if from itself" seems to have flowed from the Pope in the history of the Church whenever a grave necessity of the Church and of souls demanded it. In such extraordinary circuмstances, says Dom Grea, the episcopacy proceeded "resolute in the tacit consent of its Head rendered certain by necessity" (op. cit. vol.I, p.220). Dom Grea does not say that the consent of the pope rendered the bishops certain of the necessity. On the contrary, the necessity rendered them certain of the consent of the pope. Precisely why did the necessity render the consent of their Head "certain," consent that in reality those bishops were ignoring? - Evidently because in necessity the positive judgment of Peter is owed. If from Christ, on the strength of his primacy, Peter has the power of extending or restricting the exercise of the power of episcopal order, from Christ he also has the duty to extend or restrict it according to the necessity of the Church and of souls. In the exercise of the power of the keys, Christ remains always the "principle agent" and "no other man can exercise [the power of the keys] as principle agent" (St. Thomas, Supplement, Q.19, A.4), but only "as instrument and minister of Christ" (ibid., Q.18, A.4). The keys of Peter are also "keys of ministry," and therefore not even Peter can use the power of the keys arbitrarily, but must be attentive to the divine order of things. The divine order is that jurisdiction flows to others by means of Peter, yes, but such that it is supplied "in a manner sufficient for the salvation of the faithful" (St. Thomas, Contra Gentiles, Bk.4, c.72). Therefore, if Peter prevented it from being supplied sufficiently for the need of souls, he would act against the divine order and would commit a most grave fault (St. Thomas, Supplement, Q8, AA.4-9ƒƒ.).
    Primacy is none other than the fullest possession of that "public power of governing the faithful so that they may attain eternal life."41 It is the fullness of that power of jurisdiction which is "granted not for the advantage of the trustee, but for the good of the people and for the honor of God" (ibid., Q8, A.5, ad.1) and:
    Quote
    ...no principle of law and no sense of equity stands when that which has been salutarily instituted for the advantage of men is turned to their harm [Digesto, cit. in ST; II-I, Q.96, A.6; II-II, Q.60, A.5, ad.2].
    Therefore, Dom Grea writes that the extraordinary manifestations of episcopal power do not call into question the doctrine on the primacy, because necessity without hope of help from the legitimate pastors takes the "extraordinary action" of the episcopate back to "the essential laws of the hierarchy" which are not at all weakend by the ordinary jurisdictional laws.
    Illustrating the hierarchical constitution of the Church, St. Thomas writes:
    Quote
    ...[H]e who has universal power [i.e., the Pope - Ed.] can exercise upon all the power of the keys. Those, [i.e., the bishops - Ed.], on the other hand, who under him have received a distinct power, are not able to use the power of the keys on just anyone, but only on those who have fallen to them by lot, save the cases of necessity (Supplement, Q.20, A.1).
    That means that the hierarchical constitution of the Church, and hence the primacy, is not put into question by "action otherwise prohibited and which is rendered licit and permitted by the state of necessity."42

    b.)   Refutation of Objections
    In connection with the case of Archbishop Lefebvre, those eager to save the papal primacy (which, when the state of necessity is involved, is not in question) have protested to include the bishops' duty to help within the strict limits of the power of jurisdiction. For example, according to a little work published by the Fraternity of St. Peter,43 the problem posed by the episcopal consecrations of Archbishop Lefebvre must be dealt with not only from the standpoint of the power of order, but also from the aspect of the power of jurisdiction. Hence it is in the "order of things willed by Christ Himself" that it belongs always and only to the Supreme Pontiff"to elevate the inferior...to the level of successor of the Apostles while conferring on him a limited jurisdiction" (Du sacre episcopale contra la volonte du Pape, p.15). Archbishop Lefebvre did not do this. He specified clearly his intention was to transmit only the power of order, not that of jurisdiction. This book argues that in no case, not even in the case of necessity, can a bishop ordain another bishop without papal mandate. The rigor of this exclusion is illustrated by the authors using an example from the sacraments:
    Quote
    Thus he who does not have water for baptizing is not able to baptize the dying child with orange juice [and] he who is not a priest is not able to give absolution to one dying even if he would have need (ibid., p.57).
    This is incompetent theology and horrible logic! We leave the response to St. Thomas:
    Quote
    Baptism owes its efficacy to the consecration of the sacramental matter [and therefore no one will ever be able to baptize with orange juice - Ed.]...On the other hand, the efficacy of the sacrament of Penance [just as of the sacrament of Holy Orders - Ed.] derives from the consecration of the minister (Supplement, Q8, A.6, ad.3).
    Therefore, no one but a priest can absolve, not even in the case of necessity, because only the priest has the power of order. And, not having the power of order, he doesn't have the duty to do it. On the contrary, he who has the power of order functions validly and in the case of necessity, when there is need, is lawfully able to, indeed must, do all that he is able to do validly, that is, a priest must absolve and a bishop consecrate another a bishop "given that he has the power of order" (St. Thomas, op. cit.). The laws limiting the power of episcopal order are not invalidating or incapacitating laws, that is, those that render the act null or render the subject incapable of accomplishing it validly [which are rather divine laws governing the matter and minister of the sacraments - Ed.), but are jurisdictional laws and therefore ecclesiastical. St. Alphonsus says that concerning the matter and the form of the sacraments the Church has no power, but concerning jurisdiction the Church is able to supply and is presumed to supply certainly for the good of souls.44
    In the whole history of the Church no one can be found baptized with orange juice. What is found, on the other hand, are bishops nominated, consecrated, and instituted though "Peter being unadvised" (Suarez) and even during the period of a vacant see.45 Such a thing could not have happened if it were included in the "order of things willed by Christ Himself” that it belongs always and only to Peter to nominate and institute bishops and "in no case" to another bishop. If it was really such, the "order of things willed by Christ Himself” would have been repeatedly violated by the Church through the centuries, which is indefensible.
    The authors of Du sacre episcopale contre la volonte du Pape, confronting historical proof that bishops consecrated bishops without the pope's express approval, assert (p.63.ƒƒ) that this demonstrates "the Church knows how to be realistic" and the Council of Nicea (325), while designating the metropolitans as competent in the appointment and installation of bishops, speaks "especially of the difficulties of a geographic nature" (p.64). The assertion is a contradiction. Regarding a question of the "order of things willed by Christ Himself," the Church is not able to be "realistic." It is not allowed to the Church to be "realistic" about the minister or about the matter of the sacraments and thus has never been able for "geographic reasons" that a priest ordain a bishop46 nor that in the countries where grapes aren't grown Mass be able to be celebrated with matter different from wine. If, therefore, the Church, concerning the appointment and installation of bishops, has been "realistic" and taken account of the "difficulties of a geographic nature," it is a sign it is not in the "order of things willed by Christ Himself” that the nomination and installation of a bishop belongs always and only to the Roman Pontiff. It is not true that "in no case" -not even in the case of necessity - can one bishop nominate and institute another. As in the day, for example, when the Arian heresy was threatening the whole Church, so also in our day in Eastern Europe. As long as grave necessity without hope of help for souls and for the Church demanded, bishops have consecrated other bishops not only validly but also lawfully, despite failure to receive a mandate from the Pope. These bishops have exercised their episcopal power not only validly but also licitly because the necessity of the Church and of souls demanded it. It is significant that some theologians, hypothesize that the Church tacitly supplies jurisdiction also to the schismatic Orthodox bishops, so that with the consecration of other bishops as well as with the ordination of other priests, the necessity of so many souls is provided for.47 Therefore, the problem of the episcopal consecrations of Archbishop Lefebvre, must certainly be dealt with not only from the standpoint of the power of order, but also from the aspect of the power of jurisdiction, without exclusion of the Catholic doctrine of "supplied jurisdiction" in extraordinary circuмstances. In the Church, jurisdiction is for souls and not souls for jurisdiction. The erroneous course taken by the authors of Du sacre episcopale contre la volonte du Pape leads them to conclude that "the question of the consecrations is a fundamentally dogmatic matter and therefore [emphasis added - Ed.] unchangeable in its solution, whatever may be the circuмstances," and consequently, unconstrained application of the principle "positive law does not oblige in a grave inconvenience" seems too rapid a conclusion to justify the episcopal consecrations (op. cit., p.7).
    The fact here is that "grave inconvenience" as it applies to Archbishop Lefebvre is not treated here. But, his absolute moral impossibility to obey either the law or the legislator is hastily brushed aside with the "therefore" of the authors' statement: "It is a fundamentally dogmatic matter and therefore unchangeable in its solution [emphasis added]."
    A disciplinary law [and such are the jurisdictional laws which regulate the exercise of the power of order - Ed.], even if fundamentally dogmatic, does not lose its nature of a disciplinary law and become a dogmatic question and "therefore unchangeable in its solution."
    In canon law there are laws "proposed" by the Church (e.g., the norms of divine natural and positive law, among which is the canon on papal primacy), and laws "established" by the Church (among which are the norms restricting the exercise of the power of episcopal order, e.g., the papal reservation on episcopal consecrations).48 Law constituted by the Church is fundamentally dogmatic because dogma is the presupposition and the guide of the canonical norm,49 but the canonical norm remains quite separate and distinguishable from its dogmatic foundation. The distinction is made by looking at the initial legislator of the norm.50It is evident that papal primacy is of divine law, because it was initiated by Our Lord Jesus Christ, but the papal reservation on episcopal ordinations is an ecclesiastical law because it was initiated directly by the Pope himself. It is for this reason that, as the following quote exemplifies, the modification of ecclesiastical discipline is possible.
    Quote
    By the 11th century..., because of the abuses that arose on the part of the Metropolitans at times, the consecration of bishops gradually began to be reserved in some places to the Supreme Pontiff, and then by the 15th century reservation became universal [and only in the Latin Church].51
    You see that episcopal reservation is fixed in time, having been introduced belatedly in the Church motivated by abuses and not from divine law. Certainly, the Pope instituted this reservation in virtue of his primacy, and the Primacy is therefore the dogmatic foundation of this canonical norm, but it is not lawful on account of this to identify the canonical norm with its dogmatic foundation and thus conclude the norm is "unchangeable" on the same level as its dogmatic foundation! This amounts to making void every distinction between divine law and human ecclesiastical law, and, between dogmatic laws and jurisdictional laws. Declaring a canonical norm "unchangeable in its solution, whatever the circuмstances may be" only because it has a “dogmatic foundation" means rendering unchangeable all or most of Canon Law and absurdly annulling the doctrine on causes excusing from the obligation of the law!.
    Since Our Lord Jesus Christ had instituted the papal primacy but has not directly determined the limits of episcopal jurisdiction and has left these instead to the Roman Pontiff, it is certain that the papal reservation on episcopal ordinations is not of divine law, but ecclesiastical law, and hence is not "unchangeable whatever the circuмstances may be." On the contrary, we invoke the following clause applicable to all ecclesiastical law, that is, law constituted by the Church, which otherwise must be followed except:
    Quote
    ...for the common good and the salvation of souls prudently examined in a particular and extraordinary case; [a clause which] being universal and arising from the nature of things through force of reason, is omitted from die particular determination of law, without, however, really ceasing to prescribe the matter and obligation determined by every human law.52
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • It's an interesting article...I've read it a few times.

    Where can I find this Dogma of Faith that ordinary jurisdiction is required for Apostolic succession?

    You can find it very near the beginning of the article you found “interesting,” and which you  had “read a few times:”

    “Apostolicity of mission is a guarantee of Apostolicity of doctrine. St. Irenæus (Adv. Haeres, IV, xxvi, n. 2) says: "Wherefore we must obey the priests of the Church who have succession from the Apostles, as we have shown, who, together with succession in the episcopate, have received the certain mark of truthaccording to the will of the Father; all others, however, are to be suspected, who separated themselves from the principal succession", etc.

    In explaining the concept of Apostolicity, then, special attention must be given to Apostolicity of mission, or Apostolic succession.

    Apostolicity of mission means that the Church is one moral body, possessing the mission entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles, and transmitted through them and their lawful successors in an unbroken chain to the present representatives of Christ upon earth.

    This authoritative transmission of power in the Churchconstitutes Apostolic succession. This Apostolic succession must be both material and formal; the material consisting in the actual succession in the Church, through a series of persons from the Apostolic age to the present; the formal adding the element of authority in the transmission of power.”

    And a bit later in the same article:

    “Mazella (De Relig. et Eccl., 359), after speaking of Apostolic succession as an uninterrupted substitution of persons in the place of the Apostles, insists upon the necessity of jurisdiction or authoritative transmission...”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • You can find it very near the beginning of the article you found “interesting,” and which you  had “read a few times:”

    “Apostolicity of mission is a guarantee of Apostolicity of doctrine. St. Irenæus (Adv. Haeres, IV, xxvi, n. 2) says: "Wherefore we must obey the priests of the Church who have succession from the Apostles, as we have shown, who, together with succession in the episcopate, have received the certain mark of truthaccording to the will of the Father; all others, however, are to be suspected, who separated themselves from the principal succession", etc.

    In explaining the concept of Apostolicity, then, special attention must be given to Apostolicity of mission, or Apostolic succession.

    Apostolicity of mission means that the Church is one moral body, possessing the mission entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles, and transmitted through them and their lawful successors in an unbroken chain to the present representatives of Christ upon earth.

    This authoritative transmission of power in the Churchconstitutes Apostolic succession. This Apostolic succession must be both material and formal; the material consisting in the actual succession in the Church, through a series of persons from the Apostolic age to the present; the formal adding the element of authority in the transmission of power.”

    And a bit later in the same article:

    “Mazella (De Relig. et Eccl., 359), after speaking of Apostolic succession as an uninterrupted substitution of persons in the place of the Apostles, insists upon the necessity of jurisdiction or authoritative transmission...”

    ...and still more from the same article showing that jurisdiction is essential to formal apostolicity:

    “Regarding the Greek Church, it is sufficient to note that it lost apostolic succession by withdrawing from the jurisdiction of the lawful successors of St. Peter in the See of Rome. The same is to be said of the Anglican claims to continuity (MacLaughlin, "Divine Plan of the Church", 213; and, Newman, "Diff. of Angl.", Lecture 12.) for the very fact of separation destroys their jurisdiction.”

    In other words, if they don’t have ordinary jurisdiction, they can’t be apostolic in the formal sense.

    At best, they could possess material apostolicity (ie., episcopal continuity).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Sean, another simple yes or no question, it it a Dogma of the Church that ordinary jurisdiction is required for Apostolic succession?

    If it is, I'm not interested in another CE article, as much as I enjoy reading them, please show me the Dogma that ordinary jurisdiction is required for Apostolic succession.  

    That ^^ sure doesn't sound like the Vatican II church to me.  New church definitely isn't carrying out the "mission entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles..."


    And this ^^ certainly doesn't sound like the conciliar church possesses any sign of Apostolicity...  
     
    If you start from the correct premise that a 61 (or 1,610) year interregnum is impossible, I'm sure you will be able eto correct yourself in time.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • If you start from the correct premise that a 61 (or 1,610) year interregnum is impossible, I'm sure you will be able eto correct yourself in time.

    So ... you've just admitted that you're begging the question.