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Author Topic: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS  (Read 10902 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2017, 12:08:29 PM »
Quote
...  We enact, determine, decree and define ... that if ever at any time it shall appear that ... the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy ...

It shall appear to WHOM?  To Grandma Jones?  I knew a guy who considered Pius IX a non-pope because it "appeared" to HIM that Pius IX had embraced heresy.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2017, 12:10:33 PM »
How should Joe Sixpack in the pew decide which declarations from which bishops to believe?

That's why theologians such as John of St. Thomas felt that one would, practically speaking, need an Imperfect Council to issue a declaration of heresy.  Otherwise, as he said, there would be complete chaos in the Church.


Offline Meg

Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2017, 12:23:14 PM »
Repeat after me: nobody can judge of a pope.

That means that nobody is invested with the authority level official judgments against a pope. It's not possible to drag someone recognised as the Pope before the Inquisition or to have a body of bishops judge him. He can be corrected, but he cannot be judged.

Pope St. Nicholas, epistle (8), Proposueramus quidem, 865: “… Neither by Augustus, nor by all the clergy, nor by religious, not by the people will the judge be judged… ‘The first seat will not be judged by anyone.’"

Pope St. Leo IX, In terra pax hominibus, Sept. 2, 1053, Chap. 32: “… As the hinge while remaining immoveable opens and closes the door, so Peter and his successors have free judgment over all the Church, since no one should remove their status because ‘the highest See is judged by no one.’”

Canon 1556, 1917 Code of Canon Law, On trials in general: “The First See is judged by no one.”

No ONE PERSON can judge a Pope, that's true. And there isn't a set doctrine in regards to how to deal with a heretical Pope. Surely you know that. Various theologians have different formulas for dealing with the possibility for a Pope who is in heresy.

Sedevacantists tend to believe that the Pope is equal to God, but he isn't. He can be judged by a body of men. How it is that they separate a heretic Pope from the papacy is not clear.

You can quote canon law till the cows come home in defense of your position, but quotes can be provided to the contrary.

We do not live in the wild west, where law doesn't matter, and where the populace then takes matters into their own hands and administers frontier justice. That's not how the Church works.

Offline Meg

Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2017, 12:50:30 PM »
Pope St. Nicholas
“… Neither by Augustus, nor by all the clergy, nor by religious, not by the people will the judge be judged… ‘The first seat will not be judged by anyone.’"


What is it about this quote that you don't understand, Meg?  

Alright, so please tell what doctrine tells us EXACTLY how we are to deal with a heretical pope. Please be specific. Notice that I'm asking about how to deal in a practical manner with a Pope who is in heresy. What does the Church teach on how to exactly go about it?

Offline Meg

Re: 3 views on the internet: Amoris Laetitia now in the AAS
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2017, 01:02:18 PM »
They don't separate anyone; separation is ipso facto an immediate consequence of the heresy itself.
Canon 188.4

“Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”
(Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: ...4 A fide catholica publice defecerit.)

So what is Church teaching regarding how to deal with a Pope who is in heresy? Where does it say that laypersons are to proclaim that the seat is vacant, and that we then are also required to force others to believe the same thing?