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Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision  (Read 16186 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
« Reply #135 on: October 20, 2018, 05:13:07 PM »
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  • FALSE.
    Practicing circuмcision as a ritual is condemned.
    Circuмcision is not condemned as a mandatory medical intervention.
    NOT FALSE.  The Church condemns it whether or not one believes in it, so ritual or not, it is forbidden.  Yes, it is forbidden as ritual.  Yes it is forbidden. 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #136 on: October 20, 2018, 05:14:27 PM »
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  • You are taking the above quote out of context.
    Bolding and increasing the font size will not make a skunk a pretty feline.
    The quote speaks for itself.  Even if the skunk can't read.  


    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #137 on: October 20, 2018, 05:14:38 PM »
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  • This is close to blasphemy.  I know you're using "emotional"/poetic language but this is just wrong to say.  

    God had to destroy the world in Noah's days because it was completely corrupt - murders, sorcery, satanism, wars, human sacrifice, etc.  It was the only way that God could "reset" humanity.  God did not promise He wouldn't destroy the earth again (which He will at the 3 days of darkness - again, because we are out of control), He only promised He wouldn't do it by flooding.

    Circuмcision might be "cruel" but so it eternal fire.  Christ's crucifixion was "cruel" but it was the only way that you could go to heaven.  As +W always says, "God is not a nice puppy dog."
    You know this whole women are emotional thing is getting out of hand I think. 

    I’m not being blasphemous. I’m simply stating I know the kind of God I follow, and I don’t romanticize Him. He has called for some harsh, and scary things to be down for the worlds good. He’s always been pretty clear on what we are supposed to be doing. Once Jesus died on the cross it ended the need to fulfill the promise through circuмcision (and all the rules in the Old Testament). 
    Circuмcision has been needed in very few situations, but on whole it’s a very over used practice that is in fact brutal... needed or not. Circuмcision should not be done on infants because there is absolutely no medical need of it. (Until they grow up, and POSSIBLY have a medical need for it). 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #138 on: October 20, 2018, 05:33:55 PM »
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  • NOT FALSE.  The Church condemns it whether or not one believes in it, so ritual or not, it is forbidden.  Yes, it is forbidden as ritual.  Yes it is forbidden.

    This has been debunked about a half dozen times already.  She is correct, and you are wrong.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #139 on: October 20, 2018, 05:35:58 PM »
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  • whether or not they place their hope in it (circuмcision), it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."


    What part of the word "hope" did you not comprehend?  What part of "observed" did you not see?


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #140 on: October 20, 2018, 05:36:20 PM »
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  • So, what you're saying is that it's not intrinsically immoral.  And that's acceptable.  If you're saying that it's intrinsically neutral but is wrong today because there's no sufficient medical reason to justify it, then I have no problem with your position.

    What of the other issue here, whether it's wrong because it's been condemned by the Church?
    I said that it was not intrinsically evil in post #5.  As far as the medical aspect goes, I have been taking the position you say you have no problem with since we started.

    But there is an overlap of the religious and medical aspects.  One reason that it has been so easy to persuade Catholics to circuмcise their children is the lack of awareness of the Church teaching and traditional practice.  Throughout history it has been our default position to avoid circuмcision.  It just was not something Catholics did except under extraordinary circuмstances (and never as a religious observance).  That tradition was lost along with so many other Catholic traditions.  So when "experts" were telling us there were health benefits, this did not get questioned and resisted as it should have been. 

    I suspect that the Church allows circuмcision for genuine medical necessity, but not because of the argument that you have been making.  Your argument does not seem to be backed by Church teaching.  I think that principle of double effect would work better.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #141 on: October 20, 2018, 05:41:05 PM »
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  • I suspect that the Church allows circuмcision for genuine medical necessity, but not because of the argument that you have been making.  Your argument does not seem to be backed by Church teaching.  I think that principle of double effect would work better.

    I wasn't arguing in favor of circuмcision.  I was simply stating that you cannot say that something is intrinsically evil if God mandated it.  I was going up against those who impute mortal sin to Catholics who have their sons circuмcised because they think that there are medical benefits.

    There's no double effect involved in circuмcision.  You're cutting off the foreskin.  Period.  There aren't two things happening here.  Double effect is for cases where you do a procedure to accomplish one thing, but then another thing happens (which is the bad unintended thing).  When you're doing a circuмcision, there's only one thing happening.  So I'm not sure where you're going with this.  Some people confuse double effect with "ends justifies the means", that you're doing a bad thing for a good reason (not acceptable for Catholics) ... which is what I suspect you had in mind in invoking double effect (incorrectly).  Amputation of a body part is intrinsically neutral.  If done for sufficient reason, it can even be a good thing.  Done for insufficient reason, it could be a sin (in varying degrees).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #142 on: October 20, 2018, 05:45:19 PM »
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  • Quote
    But there is an overlap of the religious and medical aspects.
    Not presently.  No christian practices circuмcision because of religious reasons; they do it because modern medicine has told them it's a benefit.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #143 on: October 20, 2018, 05:49:39 PM »
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  • Not presently.  No christian practices circuмcision because of religious reasons; they do it because modern medicine has told them it's a benefit.

    Well, there are probably pockets of Judaizing "Christians" still left.  But, yes, even atheists commonly practice circuмcision.  If you ask me, I would say that vaccination if FAR WORSE than circuмcision in terms of the harm it can do and often does, but many have been persuaded that it's bad to NOT vaccinate.  They're wrong, but I would not impute mortal sin to parents who vaccinate thinking it's a good thing.

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #144 on: October 20, 2018, 05:55:07 PM »
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  • This has been debunked about a half dozen times already.  She is correct, and you are wrong.
    You know better. The Church has spoken.

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #145 on: October 20, 2018, 05:57:00 PM »
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  • Not presently.  No christian practices circuмcision because of religious reasons; they do it because modern medicine has told them it's a benefit.
    It doesn't matter. Florence says it cannot be practiced at all without the loss of salvation. Specifically, elective circuмcision.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #146 on: October 20, 2018, 07:06:16 PM »
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  • Florence says it cannot be practiced at all without the loss of salvation.

    No, it does not.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #147 on: October 20, 2018, 07:07:18 PM »
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  • You know better. The Church has spoken.

    Your interpretation of Church teaching is wrong; mine is right.  Yes, I know better ... than you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #148 on: October 20, 2018, 07:18:37 PM »
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  • Let's examine the entire context of the passage from Florence:

    Quote
    It firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circuмcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circuмcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.

    "hope" is clearly defined as considering them as "necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save" -- as I argued earlier.

    And the "or not" part is defined right afterwards, as considering them "retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation."

    So the whether they place their hope in them or not means ... AS I ARGUED BEFORE ... whether someone considers them necessary for salvation or otherwise retained (in force) even though not necessary for salvation.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #149 on: October 20, 2018, 07:43:07 PM »
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  • I wasn't arguing in favor of circuмcision.  I was simply stating that you cannot say that something is intrinsically evil if God mandated it.  I was going up against those who impute mortal sin to Catholics who have their sons circuмcised because they think that there are medical benefits.

    There's no double effect involved in circuмcision.  You're cutting off the foreskin.  Period.  There aren't two things happening here.  Double effect is for cases where you do a procedure to accomplish one thing, but then another thing happens (which is the bad unintended thing).  When you're doing a circuмcision, there's only one thing happening.  So I'm not sure where you're going with this.  Some people confuse double effect with "ends justifies the means", that you're doing a bad thing for a good reason (not acceptable for Catholics) ... which is what I suspect you had in mind in invoking double effect (incorrectly).  Amputation of a body part is intrinsically neutral.  If done for sufficient reason, it can even be a good thing.  Done for insufficient reason, it could be a sin (in varying degrees).
    Indeed, otherwise, why does Jesus Christ instruct us in Matthew 18:8-9 that it is better to amputate a hand, foot, or even an eye, than to have it cause you to sin and fall into hell fire.  Perhaps it is better to cut out the tongue than to commit the sin of gossip, to spread untruth, or to teach false doctrines and false interpretations.

    Quote
    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.

    And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
    Lord have mercy.