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Author Topic: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante  (Read 6746 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2023, 04:42:18 PM »
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  • Other top theologians disagreed with St. Robert, and they were not condemned by the Church.  St. Robert, though a Doctor, is not Magisterium, and the Doctors are not infallible.  
    True, but Pius XI, when declaring St. Robert Bellarmine a Doctor of the Church in Providentissimus Deus (1931), made a point of highlighting his teachings on the Roman Pontiff:

    But it is an outstanding achievement of St Robert, that the rights and privileges divinely bestowed upon the Supreme Pontiff, and those also which were not yet recognized by all the children of the Church at that time, such as the infallible Magisterium of the Pontiff speaking ex cathedra, he both invincibly proved and most learnedly defended against his adversaries. Moreover, he appeared even up to our times as a defender of the Roman Pontiff of such authority that the Fathers of the [1870] Vatican Council employed his writings and opinions to the greatest possible extent.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #31 on: September 22, 2023, 05:25:26 AM »
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  • +Schneider also says (deceptively) that the idea that a pope could be declared a heretic and removed is +Bellarmine's "opinion", thus he dismisses the idea.  Then he claims that a pope can't be removed is the theological consensus, while in fact, it's also an opinion.  This guy is just bad news; total Modernist liar.

    I didn’t read the entire thing, but this is a great point.  Calling this extreme opinion the “theological consensus” either shows extreme ignorance that destroys his theological credibility or his dishonesty, i.e, that he’s a liar, Modernist controlled opposition.  This opinion was held by very few, and no one I know after Bellarmine's refutation until this sudden revival.  He’s clearly carrying water for Jorge.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #32 on: September 22, 2023, 06:51:36 AM »
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  • What does Bishop Strickland think of Fr Altman's position?  Has he said anything?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #33 on: September 22, 2023, 06:51:45 AM »
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  • Lol…so Billuart is a heretic for rejecting this “dogma” and nobody knew it until you started posting on CI?

    Quite a few new “dogmas” are revealed here in precisely such a way!

    The teaching that the public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church is a teaching of the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium.  It is also the unanimous teaching of the Fathers.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #34 on: September 22, 2023, 06:57:55 AM »
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  • So, in this dispute ...

    #1) Sean, CK didn't call it a "dogma" but a "doctrine".

    #2) CK, Pius XII taught that the sin of heresy separates from the Church, but he didn't stipulate what kind of heresy, manifest, notorious, public, declared, etc.  He left the details of that controversy unsettled.

    Nevertheless, +Schneider denies that ANY type of heresy:  apostasy, profession of a false religion, manifest, public, notorious, declared ... he denies that any of these would remove the man from the Church, and therefore from the papacy, so the criticism of +Schneider as denying this doctrine does stand, as +Schneider covers the entire gamut of every side of the controversy ... except for the "once Catholic, always Catholic by virtue of the Baptismal character", which does appear incompatible now with the teaching of Pius XII.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #35 on: September 22, 2023, 07:04:42 AM »
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  • True, but Pius XI, when declaring St. Robert Bellarmine a Doctor of the Church in Providentissimus Deus (1931), made a point of highlighting his teachings on the Roman Pontiff:

    But it is an outstanding achievement of St Robert, that the rights and privileges divinely bestowed upon the Supreme Pontiff, and those also which were not yet recognized by all the children of the Church at that time, such as the infallible Magisterium of the Pontiff speaking ex cathedra, he both invincibly proved and most learnedly defended against his adversaries. Moreover, he appeared even up to our times as a defender of the Roman Pontiff of such authority that the Fathers of the [1870] Vatican Council employed his writings and opinions to the greatest possible extent.

    Yes, this adds much weight St. Robert's teaching about the papacy, including his opinion on "Heretic Pope" controversy as well, but it still doesn't definitively settle any particular point of the controversy.  Of course, Salza and Siscoe have butchered Bellarmine into holding the same opinion as Cajetan (which he explicitly rejected).  But that's a separate matter we needn't digress into again here.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #36 on: September 22, 2023, 07:07:46 AM »
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  • So, in this dispute ...

    #1) Sean, CK didn't call it a "dogma" but a "doctrine".

    #2) CK, Pius XII taught that the sin of heresy separates from the Church, but he didn't stipulate what kind of heresy, manifest, notorious, public, declared, etc.  He left the details of that controversy unsettled.

    Nevertheless, +Schneider denies that ANY type of heresy:  apostasy, profession of a false religion, manifest, public, notorious, declared ... he denies that any of these would remove the man from the Church, and therefore from the papacy, so the criticism of +Schneider as denying this doctrine does stand, as +Schneider covers the entire gamut of every side of the controversy ... except for the "once Catholic, always Catholic by virtue of the Baptismal character", which does appear incompatible now with the teaching of Pius XII.

    I object to your use of the term "declared" if you are using this term in a juridical sense.  "Suapte natura" (by its very nature) precludes the need for a declaration for the separation to take place.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #37 on: September 22, 2023, 07:15:05 AM »
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  • No, that’s not true.

    They cite passages of Bellarmine left out of the traditional sede interpretation, which show that his “ipso facto deposition” argument commences at the time the Church announces the fact of the pope’s heresy (vs the sede interpretation that ipso facto deposition occurs the moment the popeexpresses heresy).

    But both of those positions are still different than Cajetan/JST, who say the deposition does not take place until a second declaration at an imperfect council that God has deposed the pope.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #38 on: September 22, 2023, 07:19:47 AM »
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  • So, in this dispute ...

    #1) Sean, CK didn't call it a "dogma" but a "doctrine".

    #2) CK, Pius XII taught that the sin of heresy separates from the Church, but he didn't stipulate what kind of heresy, manifest, notorious, public, declared, etc.  He left the details of that controversy unsettled.

    Nevertheless, +Schneider denies that ANY type of heresy:  apostasy, profession of a false religion, manifest, public, notorious, declared ... he denies that any of these would remove the man from the Church, and therefore from the papacy, so the criticism of +Schneider as denying this doctrine does stand, as +Schneider covers the entire gamut of every side of the controversy ... except for the "once Catholic, always Catholic by virtue of the Baptismal character", which does appear incompatible now with the teaching of Pius XII.

    CK said it was a de fide doctrine (ie., obligatory), so the consequence for denial would be the same: If CK is correct, Billuart died outside the Church for his opinion.  That’s an argument nobody has ever made, and  highlights the absurdity of CK’s position (particularly since Billuart states that his opinion is the more common one).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #39 on: September 22, 2023, 08:40:21 AM »
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  • Minority opinion?

    Sean seems to be back and forth on this.  On the one hand, he seems to back Salza and Siscoe's claim that Bellarmine's position was identical to that of Cajetan, but then he says Bellarmine's opinion is now the minority opinion.  How if he had the same opinion as Cajetan et al?  In any case, I've seen 20th century theologians who hold that St. Robert's position had become the common theological opinion.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #40 on: September 22, 2023, 08:47:03 AM »
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  • Sean seems to be back and forth on this.  On the one hand, he seems to back Salza and Siscoe's claim that Bellarmine's position was identical to that of Cajetan, but then he says Bellarmine's opinion is now the minority opinion.  How if he had the same opinion as Cajetan et al?  In any case, I've seen 20th century theologians who hold that St. Robert's position had become the common theological opinion.

    Lad seems to be living in his own imagination again, as I clearly showed (just a couple posts above) S&S distinguishing between Bellarmine and Cajetan.

    As regards the minority opinion thing, Billuart (who wrote after Bellarmine by a couple centuries) says his own opinion, that a manifest heretic retains office until a declaration is made, is the more common opinion.  Obviously, that means Bellarmine’s opinion is a minority opinion.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #41 on: September 22, 2023, 08:49:29 AM »
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  • Lad seems to be living in his own imagination again, as I clearly showed (just a couple posts above) S&S distinguishing between Bellarmine and Cajetan.

    They do nothing of the sort.  But, again, S&S say you're a schismatic and outside the Church, but just keep on promoting their fantasies, not realizing that it's the same principles you're backing that lead them to conclude that you're outside the Church also, and that +Lefebvre was a non-Catholic schismatic who died outside the Church, while Joe Biden is a Catholic in good standing.  This is a clear case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #42 on: September 22, 2023, 08:50:50 AM »
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  • Lad seems to be living in his own imagination again, as I clearly showed (just a couple posts above) S&S distinguishing between Bellarmine and Cajetan.

    Wait, I’m confused, didn’t you post many times in the past that Saint Robert’s opinion and Cajetan’s opinion were the same using S&S as a reference?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #43 on: September 22, 2023, 08:51:50 AM »
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  • They do nothing of the sort.  But, again, S&S say you're a schismatic and outside the Church, but just keep on promoting their fantasies, not realizing that it's the same principles you're backing that lead them to conclude that you're outside the Church also.

    You can continue to live in your own solipsistic, flat world.  

    For any who care to be bothered by the truth, SS have a website full of content distinguishing between Bellarmine and Cajetan/JST.  
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Schneider Blunders on Sedevacante
    « Reply #44 on: September 22, 2023, 08:53:25 AM »
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  • Wait, I’m confused, didn’t you post many times in the past that Saint Robert’s opinion and Cajetan’s opinion were the same?

    He most certainly did, and that's the S&S fantasy also, that St. Robert holds that the Pope wouldn't be deposed until the Church judged him deposed, which is identical to Cajetan's opinion.  St. Robert rejects that because unless the fall from office occurred a priori to the judgment, the Church would be judging a Pope, which is not permissible.  I actually think you can find the seeds of SedePrivationism in St. Robert Bellarmine, but that's a different matter.