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Author Topic: Rethinking Tolkien  (Read 7934 times)

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Offline Kazimierz

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Re: Rethinking Tolkien
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2023, 11:24:16 AM »
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  • Tolkien himself said that the LOTR was profoundly Catholic. It just takes time to delve into his works to see how this all works out. :smirk:

    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
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    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #31 on: December 07, 2023, 11:30:22 AM »
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  • Some thoughts on the material presented:

    I think it was Alexander Pope who said that a little learning is a dangerous thing, and I think that axiom applies to the critic-priest's presentation against Tolkien. What follows is a defense/response to some of the specific claims he makes. I thought I had written something like this years ago, but didn’t find it in my posting history. I've seen this presentation before. FYI, I'll be responding to the text copy rather than the audio. https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-fantasy-writing-of-tolkien-was.html


     Although the priest is able, apparently, to provide some evidence for his claims, all the evidence is ill considered and divorced—sometimes violently and contradictorily—from its original context. A closer and more objective look at Tolkien sufficiently and resoundingly debunks or at least casts significant doubt on almost everything the critic-priest has to say about him.

    I am going to focus mainly on the first part of the presentation, since that is the part where he makes his case against Tolkien. I’ll take it in order. I’m not responding to literally everything he said, but I am certainly attempting to respond what I believe are all his main points.

    Regarding myth and allegory…


    Quote
    it is well established that JRR Tolkien, a philologist…someone who studied words and languages, enjoyed researching and discussing mythology, especially that of Northern Europe. As a result, he developed a sort of “philosophy of myth” while shunning allegory, saying, “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations.” He criticized C.S. Lewis for his too transparent allegories and resisted all attempts to make his own works allegorical. Here we already have a problem because God loves allegory. He placed allegories in the Scriptures as St. Paul explains in Galatians. Thus, one of the main ways to interpret the Sacred Scriptures is the allegorical sense. A whole school of thought in the early Church, the Alexandrian School, has contributed many things to the exposition of the Scriptures using allegory.
    Tolkien did not have some irrational phobia of allegory. What Tolkien had was a cordial distaste for a very specific kind of allegory, i.e., the kind of allegory where there is only one possible meaning or interpretation of a figure, event, place, artifact, etc. Aslan in The Chronicles of Narnia is a good example of this—Aslan is simply Christ, full stop. There’s nothing more or less to interpreting the character. In Tolkien’s view, fiction is better rendered not without allegory, but where the allegory has a more generalized character—for instance, he described LotR is a “fundamentally religious and Catholic work” and that it was also an allegory of power (Letters 142 & 186). He said in another letter that “the only fully intelligible story is an allegory. And one finds, even in imperfect human 'literature', that the better and more consistent an allegory is the more easily it can be read 'just as a story'; and the better and more closely woven a story is the more easily can those so minded find allegory in it." (letter 109). Clearly, it just isn't true to say that Tolkien disliked allegory full stop and leave it at that.


    Ironically, the kind of allegory Tolkien uses—the kind which he believes is not just tolerable but actually inextricable from a good story—is exactly the kind that scripture uses! Scripture does not have 1:1 allegories. Melchisidech is not an allegory for Christ, but an allegory for Christ, and for the new priesthood, and for the sacrifice of the Mass, etc. The critic-priest’s suggestion that Tolkien is anti-allegorical is simply false, and his further implication that in being anti-allegorical Tolkien runs afoul of God and scripture is even more false.


    Quote
    According to Joseph Pearce, Tolkien thought that myth was a better way to transmit various high level truths: “Tolkien … believed that mythology was a means of conveying certain transcendent truths which are almost inexpressible within the factual confines of a ‘realistic’ novel.” In another place: “For Tolkien, myth …was the only way that certain transcendent truths could be expressed in intelligible form” (Tolkien: Man and Myth, Pearce, p. XIII).  I hope your alarm bells are going off. This is a sign of modern revolutionary thinking… which teaches that only in recent times have we finally figured out how to do things right … in this case, how to transmit high level truths. What? All these centuries we have failed to transmit the transcendent truths of God in a realistic manner? Does this make any sense? NO!
    This is kind of ironic… in the previous paragraph the critic-priest criticizes Tolkien for his dislike of allegory, and in this paragraph Tolkien’s problem is that he doesn’t trust enough in realism’s ability to transmit truth! You’ll have to pick one, you can’t have both. This reads like someone who is simply searching for problems, without any attention to whether the overall critique is coherent.

    But the problems with this criticism are even more serious than the criticism over allegory. For starters, the quote from Pearce is mangled beyond recognition. Here is what Pearce actually said:


    “[Tolkien] understood the meaning of myth in a way that has not been grasped by his critics and this misapprehension is at the very root of their failure to appreciate his work. For most modern critics, a myth is merely another word for a lie or a falsehood, something which is intrinsically not true. For Tolkien, myth had virtually the opposite meaning. It was the only way that certain transcendent truths could be expressed in intelligible form" (Pearce, p. XIII).

    Are alarm bells ringing? You bet. Anyways, I think Pearce’s description here is completely accurate, based on what I’ve read of and from Tolkien. Tolkien took myth to refer to the transcendental truths about reality, human nature, etc. and he preferred the mythic format to the “realistic novel” format for this very reason. Again, the critic-priest’s attempt to pigeon-hole Tolkien as being anti-Gospel or anti-Church is just vain.

    A quick aside, since the critic-priest seems to rely almost exclusively on Pearce for his analysis: Pearce is a relatively competent Tolkien scholar, but at the end of the day he is one of many Tolkien scholars and I personally don’t agree with everything Pearce has to say about Tolkien’s work. And that’s usually the case when it comes to scholarship. Scholarship is arguable, and there are different sides and interpretations available. The critic-priest should not use Pearce as though he is the singular authority of Tolkien. A serious critique of Tolkien would need to take more than just one author’s view. And it would also need to incorporate the things that Tolkien himself said, which the critic-priest only infrequently does.

    The Problem with Myth...

    Moving on, the critic-priest spends several paragraphs talking about how myth is inferior to the gospel and how the proof is in the pudding so to speak—in the 60s and 70s (the two decades following LotR’s release) people lost faith rather than being buffeted in it or converted to it.  But the critic-priest has already mischaracterized what Tolkien has in mind by myth, so his various quotes from Pius XII and references to Baruch are just inapplicable. Moreover, the critic priest by this point has subtly shifted his premise: he is essentially, by this point, supposing that Tolkien’s intent in writing LotR was to provide a mythology to supplant Christianity! An outrageous assumption, frankly. If the critic-priest was laboring under the assumption that LotR is a sufficient replacement for going to Mass, believing the truths of the catechism, following the moral law, etc., then that’s his problem or the problem of whoever sold him LotR… it’s not Tolkien’s. And the suggestion that the cultural revolution is in some way related to the proliferation of Lotr is… ridiculous. I’m sure readers of Cathinfo can find a perfectly satisfactory alternative explanation to why the 1960s and 70s were times of rapid moral decline without blaming Tolkien 😉

    Now, the truth is that the Church has long tolerated myth (there are times and places where treatises against myths were issued, and this was because in those times and places the myths were actual substitute religions—intended as such, and taken as such; clearly not a fair comparison to LotR). An ecclesiastical education has always required students to learn Latin and Greek, and the mode of learning these languages was to read the ancient Roman and Greek pagan myths. St. Basil has a rather famous treatise on the right way to approach the works of the pagans, and it’s exactly what you’d expect: take them where they are good, and be ready to identify (and leave them) where they are bad. Tolkien—who was a practicing and devout Catholic, whatever his failures are—must, as a mythmaker, certainly get more credit than actual literal pagan mythmakers.  At worst, St. Basil’s rule applies to Tolkien, too. Take him where he is good, leave him where he is not. Avoid him at all costs because myths are evil? This is hysterical. 
     
    Briefly I also want to mention the critic-priests naturalization of mythical creatures in scripture. He says the unicorn is a rhinoceros, the leviathan a whale, etc…. While these are probably acceptable interpretations, they’re by no means the only ones. Personally I think David really did mean unicorns, and he also mentions basilisks, and Isais mentions vampires—not sure how we naturalize a basilisk or a vampire. At any rate, I just want to point out that the critic-priest has constantly shifting standards, and it seems that as long as he can make a point against Tolkien he’ll do it, regardless of how consistent the point is with the rest of his critique. So far Tolkien is bad because: he rejects the symbolism of allegory, but also because he rejects the truthful nature of realism, and also he rejects the naturalistic interpretations of mythical creatures in scripture… there's a lot of internal tension in this criticism that on the one hand says Tolkien should have greater appreciation for symbolism, on the other he needs greater appreciation for realism, all from a man who takes mythical references in scripture and gives naturalist interpretations of them... It doesn't jive well.

    There are a variety of simply factual errors too… Meister Eckhart’s condemnation had nothing to do with anything remotely analogous to what Tolkien was up to. Theosophy has nothing to do with what Tolkien was up to. Matthew Fox? C’mon.  This is just a very vague smear by very, very remote association.

    At any rate, the vast majority of the critic-priest’s criticism of Tolkien as a myth-maker falls flat because he is treating some generic kind of myth, and the worst kind, rather than what Tolkien actually had in mind. 


    The Silmarillion, Gnosticism, Magic

    Moving on to the Critic-priest’s more specific problems with LotR and the Silmarillion… The fundamental problem here seems to simply be this: Tolkien didn’t write the Gospel or a catechism. He points out dissimilarities between parts of Tolkien’s story and scripture or Tradition, and then uses these dissimilarities to argue that Tolkien’s myth is incapable of communicating truth. The critic-priest sounds like the type who needs that 1:1 allegory to make sense of fiction. 

    I find that this critique, like all the others, ultimately reduces to the question not just of LotR, but of fiction per se. The critic priest—seriously, apparently—criticizes Gandalf for casting the Witch King into the abyss, without mentioning eternal punishment. From which we are supposed to infer that no such thing as eternal punishment exists, I guess?

    This standard—the standard whereby fiction is deemed dangerous because it fails to mention every Catholic truth—renders fiction per se immoral. And I just don’t see how that is a conclusion we can take seriously. The Church has long been a patron of the liberal arts and of literature. Not all of it, of course, but much of it. Catholic education has included, without any tumult, experience with the works of Shakespeare, Sophocles, and many other iconic western writers. If the standard by which we judge fiction is whether or not it is literally identical to the deposit of faith, then clearly all fiction fails. 

    I’d like to address two more specific claims of the critic priest’s, and then wrap up.  First, there’s the claim of Gnosticism in Tolkien’s creation myth. Then there’s the claims about Tolkien’s use of magic.

    It is true that the Gnostics believed in a creation through intermediary beings instead of the Creator God, but Gnosticism holds that there is this awful tension and violence between the demiurges and the “real” god, and in fact the whole “point” of Gnosticism is to be released from the prison of the material world (created by the demiurges against the will of “god”). This is why gnostics always manifest in history as dualists—they regard the body and matter as evil, and believe that our fundamental duty and calling in life is to rush to death so that our souls can be freed from our bodies and the material world—both of which are prisons. The problem with Gnosticism is more that than the idea of God allowing or empowering lesser beings to participate in creation. Of course, God did not in fact allow or empower the angles to create the world, but there is nothing contradictory to the nature of God to have done so. After all, He most definitely ennobles humankind to participate in the ongoing work of human creation. So, Tolkien’s creation myth isn’t identical to what scripture says about creation. But to call it gnostic and heretical, as the critic-priest has done, is an exaggeration. It would be more accurate to simply say that Tolkien’s creation myth didn’t happen. But that isn’t a very salacious claim. And everyone already knows that.

    Regarding magic, this one is misunderstood by the critic-priest and also, I think, by Pearce. In Tolkien’s world the “magic” is really, by and large, special (as in, pertaining to species) powers some characters have. Gandalf is a maiar (analogous to an angel) who, by virtue of his nature, has certain special abilities. Same with elves and the Numenorians.  I know that the word “magic” is used at times (more in the Hobbit, I think, than in LotR) but it simply isn’t. It’s something else. The only magic in the actual sense (i.e., alchemical attempts and other endeavors to exercise unnatural power over nature) is used exclusively by the bad guys, and the point is always that they are acting unlawfully and that havoc ensues.


    Tolkien and Modernity

    I’m going to leave my defense there, and close with this: in his second conference, the critic-priest more or less argues that the reason LotR is popular is that it affirms all the insipid assumptions and values of modernity. I vehemently disagree with that, and some of the reasons why are included in my defense above, but a complete treatment of that topic will need to be left for another post. As a matter of fact, I think that the reason Tolkien is popular is exactly the opposite.

    No one actually likes modernity, or few do. Modernity is characterized by purposelessness, alienating individuality, and an insufferably mundane malaise (among other things). The modern condition is a miserable one, and even godless people will tell you that. The reason that LotR is so popular is that it is not these things. In Middle Earth, everyone and everything has a purpose, even if that purpose is not yet revealed. In Middle Earth there are peoples with strong identities and cultures. In Middle Earth, despondency is overcome by heroism.

    Contrary to the progressivist principle that over the passage of time mankind inevitably improves and progresses, Middle Earth is a place where unless there are noble and virtuous men to preserve and guard what is good in the world, people decay and decline. Tolkien upholds the doctrine of degeneration rather than progress, as Middle Earth is a place where unless the good guys are vigilant, the devil devours and over time cultures and civilizations decline rather than improve. There is hardly anything more anti-modern than the idea that things get worse, not better, over time.

    Our own times and culture as so modern, so progressive, etc. that Tolkien’s work provides a welcome respite. Of course, the primary reason for the condition of the modern world is that the Church has been infiltrated and her authority has all but completely disappeared. And Tolkien’s work is no substitute for a functioning Catholic hierarchy and teaching Church. No one—least of all Tolkien himself—would ever even remotely suggest otherwise.  But Tolkien is a lot more accessible than the Catholic Church (notwithstanding the various attempts to corrupt his work, too). And people feel like they are taking less of a risk reading a book of fiction than reading the Gospel or a catechism.

    Finally, I would hardly say that Simeon needs to stop everything and start reading LotR again. I think we all know there are things, including good things, that some of us give up because we struggle to use them in moderation. That is the right thing to do. So don’t take my response as an indication that Simeon did the wrong thing.


    If there is anything specific about the presentation that I didn't address and someone would like me to, please bring it up. I'm in the mood to talk Tolkien.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #32 on: December 07, 2023, 12:03:05 PM »
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  • Some thoughts on the material presented:

    I think it was Alexander Pope who said that a little learning is a dangerous thing, and I think that axiom applies to the critic-priest's presentation against Tolkien. What follows is a defense/response to some of the specific claims he makes. I thought I had written something like this years ago, but didn’t find it in my posting history. I've seen this presentation before. FYI, I'll be responding to the text copy rather than the audio. https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-fantasy-writing-of-tolkien-was.html


     Although the priest is able, apparently, to provide some evidence for his claims, all the evidence is ill considered and divorced—sometimes violently and contradictorily—from its original context. A closer and more objective look at Tolkien sufficiently and resoundingly debunks or at least casts significant doubt on almost everything the critic-priest has to say about him.

    I am going to focus mainly on the first part of the presentation, since that is the part where he makes his case against Tolkien. I’ll take it in order. I’m not responding to literally everything he said, but I am certainly attempting to respond what I believe are all his main points.

    Regarding myth and allegory…

    Tolkien did not have some irrational phobia of allegory. What Tolkien had was a cordial distaste for a very specific kind of allegory, i.e., the kind of allegory where there is only one possible meaning or interpretation of a figure, event, place, artifact, etc. Aslan in The Chronicles of Narnia is a good example of this—Aslan is simply Christ, full stop. There’s nothing more or less to interpreting the character. In Tolkien’s view, fiction is better rendered not without allegory, but where the allegory has a more generalized character—for instance, he described LotR is a “fundamentally religious and Catholic work” and that it was also an allegory of power (Letters 142 & 186). He said in another letter that “the only fully intelligible story is an allegory. And one finds, even in imperfect human 'literature', that the better and more consistent an allegory is the more easily it can be read 'just as a story'; and the better and more closely woven a story is the more easily can those so minded find allegory in it." (letter 109). Clearly, it just isn't true to say that Tolkien disliked allegory full stop and leave it at that.


    Ironically, the kind of allegory Tolkien uses—the kind which he believes is not just tolerable but actually inextricable from a good story—is exactly the kind that scripture uses! Scripture does not have 1:1 allegories. Melchisidech is not an allegory for Christ, but an allegory for Christ, and for the new priesthood, and for the sacrifice of the Mass, etc. The critic-priest’s suggestion that Tolkien is anti-allegorical is simply false, and his further implication that in being anti-allegorical Tolkien runs afoul of God and scripture is even more false.

    This is kind of ironic… in the previous paragraph the critic-priest criticizes Tolkien for his dislike of allegory, and in this paragraph Tolkien’s problem is that he doesn’t trust enough in realism’s ability to transmit truth! You’ll have to pick one, you can’t have both. This reads like someone who is simply searching for problems, without any attention to whether the overall critique is coherent.

    But the problems with this criticism are even more serious than the criticism over allegory. For starters, the quote from Pearce is mangled beyond recognition. Here is what Pearce actually said:


    “[Tolkien] understood the meaning of myth in a way that has not been grasped by his critics and this misapprehension is at the very root of their failure to appreciate his work. For most modern critics, a myth is merely another word for a lie or a falsehood, something which is intrinsically not true. For Tolkien, myth had virtually the opposite meaning. It was the only way that certain transcendent truths could be expressed in intelligible form" (Pearce, p. XIII).

    Are alarm bells ringing? You bet. Anyways, I think Pearce’s description here is completely accurate, based on what I’ve read of and from Tolkien. Tolkien took myth to refer to the transcendental truths about reality, human nature, etc. and he preferred the mythic format to the “realistic novel” format for this very reason. Again, the critic-priest’s attempt to pigeon-hole Tolkien as being anti-Gospel or anti-Church is just vain.

    A quick aside, since the critic-priest seems to rely almost exclusively on Pearce for his analysis: Pearce is a relatively competent Tolkien scholar, but at the end of the day he is one of many Tolkien scholars and I personally don’t agree with everything Pearce has to say about Tolkien’s work. And that’s usually the case when it comes to scholarship. Scholarship is arguable, and there are different sides and interpretations available. The critic-priest should not use Pearce as though he is the singular authority of Tolkien. A serious critique of Tolkien would need to take more than just one author’s view. And it would also need to incorporate the things that Tolkien himself said, which the critic-priest only infrequently does.

    The Problem with Myth...

    Moving on, the critic-priest spends several paragraphs talking about how myth is inferior to the gospel and how the proof is in the pudding so to speak—in the 60s and 70s (the two decades following LotR’s release) people lost faith rather than being buffeted in it or converted to it.  But the critic-priest has already mischaracterized what Tolkien has in mind by myth, so his various quotes from Pius XII and references to Baruch are just inapplicable. Moreover, the critic priest by this point has subtly shifted his premise: he is essentially, by this point, supposing that Tolkien’s intent in writing LotR was to provide a mythology to supplant Christianity! An outrageous assumption, frankly. If the critic-priest was laboring under the assumption that LotR is a sufficient replacement for going to Mass, believing the truths of the catechism, following the moral law, etc., then that’s his problem or the problem of whoever sold him LotR… it’s not Tolkien’s. And the suggestion that the cultural revolution is in some way related to the proliferation of Lotr is… ridiculous. I’m sure readers of Cathinfo can find a perfectly satisfactory alternative explanation to why the 1960s and 70s were times of rapid moral decline without blaming Tolkien 😉

    Now, the truth is that the Church has long tolerated myth (there are times and places where treatises against myths were issued, and this was because in those times and places the myths were actual substitute religions—intended as such, and taken as such; clearly not a fair comparison to LotR). An ecclesiastical education has always required students to learn Latin and Greek, and the mode of learning these languages was to read the ancient Roman and Greek pagan myths. St. Basil has a rather famous treatise on the right way to approach the works of the pagans, and it’s exactly what you’d expect: take them where they are good, and be ready to identify (and leave them) where they are bad. Tolkien—who was a practicing and devout Catholic, whatever his failures are—must, as a mythmaker, certainly get more credit than actual literal pagan mythmakers.  At worst, St. Basil’s rule applies to Tolkien, too. Take him where he is good, leave him where he is not. Avoid him at all costs because myths are evil? This is hysterical.
     
    Briefly I also want to mention the critic-priests naturalization of mythical creatures in scripture. He says the unicorn is a rhinoceros, the leviathan a whale, etc…. While these are probably acceptable interpretations, they’re by no means the only ones. Personally I think David really did mean unicorns, and he also mentions basilisks, and Isais mentions vampires—not sure how we naturalize a basilisk or a vampire. At any rate, I just want to point out that the critic-priest has constantly shifting standards, and it seems that as long as he can make a point against Tolkien he’ll do it, regardless of how consistent the point is with the rest of his critique. So far Tolkien is bad because: he rejects the symbolism of allegory, but also because he rejects the truthful nature of realism, and also he rejects the naturalistic interpretations of mythical creatures in scripture… there's a lot of internal tension in this criticism that on the one hand says Tolkien should have greater appreciation for symbolism, on the other he needs greater appreciation for realism, all from a man who takes mythical references in scripture and gives naturalist interpretations of them... It doesn't jive well.

    There are a variety of simply factual errors too… Meister Eckhart’s condemnation had nothing to do with anything remotely analogous to what Tolkien was up to. Theosophy has nothing to do with what Tolkien was up to. Matthew Fox? C’mon.  This is just a very vague smear by very, very remote association.

    At any rate, the vast majority of the critic-priest’s criticism of Tolkien as a myth-maker falls flat because he is treating some generic kind of myth, and the worst kind, rather than what Tolkien actually had in mind. 


    The Silmarillion, Gnosticism, Magic

    Moving on to the Critic-priest’s more specific problems with LotR and the Silmarillion… The fundamental problem here seems to simply be this: Tolkien didn’t write the Gospel or a catechism. He points out dissimilarities between parts of Tolkien’s story and scripture or Tradition, and then uses these dissimilarities to argue that Tolkien’s myth is incapable of communicating truth. The critic-priest sounds like the type who needs that 1:1 allegory to make sense of fiction.

    I find that this critique, like all the others, ultimately reduces to the question not just of LotR, but of fiction per se. The critic priest—seriously, apparently—criticizes Gandalf for casting the Witch King into the abyss, without mentioning eternal punishment. From which we are supposed to infer that no such thing as eternal punishment exists, I guess?

    This standard—the standard whereby fiction is deemed dangerous because it fails to mention every Catholic truth—renders fiction per se immoral. And I just don’t see how that is a conclusion we can take seriously. The Church has long been a patron of the liberal arts and of literature. Not all of it, of course, but much of it. Catholic education has included, without any tumult, experience with the works of Shakespeare, Sophocles, and many other iconic western writers. If the standard by which we judge fiction is whether or not it is literally identical to the deposit of faith, then clearly all fiction fails. 

    I’d like to address two more specific claims of the critic priest’s, and then wrap up.  First, there’s the claim of Gnosticism in Tolkien’s creation myth. Then there’s the claims about Tolkien’s use of magic.

    It is true that the Gnostics believed in a creation through intermediary beings instead of the Creator God, but Gnosticism holds that there is this awful tension and violence between the demiurges and the “real” god, and in fact the whole “point” of Gnosticism is to be released from the prison of the material world (created by the demiurges against the will of “god”). This is why gnostics always manifest in history as dualists—they regard the body and matter as evil, and believe that our fundamental duty and calling in life is to rush to death so that our souls can be freed from our bodies and the material world—both of which are prisons. The problem with Gnosticism is more that than the idea of God allowing or empowering lesser beings to participate in creation. Of course, God did not in fact allow or empower the angles to create the world, but there is nothing contradictory to the nature of God to have done so. After all, He most definitely ennobles humankind to participate in the ongoing work of human creation. So, Tolkien’s creation myth isn’t identical to what scripture says about creation. But to call it gnostic and heretical, as the critic-priest has done, is an exaggeration. It would be more accurate to simply say that Tolkien’s creation myth didn’t happen. But that isn’t a very salacious claim. And everyone already knows that.

    Regarding magic, this one is misunderstood by the critic-priest and also, I think, by Pearce. In Tolkien’s world the “magic” is really, by and large, special (as in, pertaining to species) powers some characters have. Gandalf is a maiar (analogous to an angel) who, by virtue of his nature, has certain special abilities. Same with elves and the Numenorians.  I know that the word “magic” is used at times (more in the Hobbit, I think, than in LotR) but it simply isn’t. It’s something else. The only magic in the actual sense (i.e., alchemical attempts and other endeavors to exercise unnatural power over nature) is used exclusively by the bad guys, and the point is always that they are acting unlawfully and that havoc ensues.


    Tolkien and Modernity

    I’m going to leave my defense there, and close with this: in his second conference, the critic-priest more or less argues that the reason LotR is popular is that it affirms all the insipid assumptions and values of modernity. I vehemently disagree with that, and some of the reasons why are included in my defense above, but a complete treatment of that topic will need to be left for another post. As a matter of fact, I think that the reason Tolkien is popular is exactly the opposite.

    No one actually likes modernity, or few do. Modernity is characterized by purposelessness, alienating individuality, and an insufferably mundane malaise (among other things). The modern condition is a miserable one, and even godless people will tell you that. The reason that LotR is so popular is that it is not these things. In Middle Earth, everyone and everything has a purpose, even if that purpose is not yet revealed. In Middle Earth there are peoples with strong identities and cultures. In Middle Earth, despondency is overcome by heroism.

    Contrary to the progressivist principle that over the passage of time mankind inevitably improves and progresses, Middle Earth is a place where unless there are noble and virtuous men to preserve and guard what is good in the world, people decay and decline. Tolkien upholds the doctrine of degeneration rather than progress, as Middle Earth is a place where unless the good guys are vigilant, the devil devours and over time cultures and civilizations decline rather than improve. There is hardly anything more anti-modern than the idea that things get worse, not better, over time.

    Our own times and culture as so modern, so progressive, etc. that Tolkien’s work provides a welcome respite. Of course, the primary reason for the condition of the modern world is that the Church has been infiltrated and her authority has all but completely disappeared. And Tolkien’s work is no substitute for a functioning Catholic hierarchy and teaching Church. No one—least of all Tolkien himself—would ever even remotely suggest otherwise.  But Tolkien is a lot more accessible than the Catholic Church (notwithstanding the various attempts to corrupt his work, too). And people feel like they are taking less of a risk reading a book of fiction than reading the Gospel or a catechism.

    Finally, I would hardly say that Simeon needs to stop everything and start reading LotR again. I think we all know there are things, including good things, that some of us give up because we struggle to use them in moderation. That is the right thing to do. So don’t take my response as an indication that Simeon did the wrong thing.


    If there is anything specific about the presentation that I didn't address and someone would like me to, please bring it up. I'm in the mood to talk Tolkien.
    Most excellent. This indeeds to be brought up again and again. 

    As I re-read LOTR for the umptieth time (on ROTK right now, trying to complete it before Gaudete Sunday) there is always something new that continues to illustrate Tolkien's Catholicity in the text. 

    I remember the sense of revelation I received, many ages ago when i just began delving more deeply into Tolkien's works, when I understood WHO it was/is that was responsible for having made Bilbo find the One Ring, which begins "the economy of salvation of Middle Earth" in the Third Age and ends with the only Person Who could truly be the direct agent in destroying the Ring. That was a truly "Whoa!" moment.

    I am always eager to further develop my understanding of Tolkien's work, which naturally increases my appreciation and enthusiasm.

    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #33 on: December 07, 2023, 12:36:35 PM »
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    Tolkien himself said that the LOTR was profoundly Catholic. It just takes time to delve into his works to see how this all works out. :smirk: title=smirk
    True, but Tolkien's use of symbolism is much more subtle than (as an example, C.S. Lewis') allegory.

    An allegory is a narrative that cannot be read without getting "the message" (i.e. the tales of Narnia are unquestionably Christian).  Tolkien didn't like allegory and thought it was too specific, since there was only 1 interpretation allowed.  Thus, he used symbolism, which is why his works appeal to both Catholics and non-catholics.

    As you point out, once you start "delving into his works", you start to notice the Catholic details, and the hidden interpretation of many things is brought to light.  As an example, a normal reader can easily understand the "One Ring" as idea of temptation, lust for power, pride, etc.  But a deeper, more Catholic understanding of it is sinful human nature, which must be kept in check or it will destroy your entire world.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #34 on: December 07, 2023, 12:54:07 PM »
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  • Thank you, Mith! Exactly what I was hoping for. A point by point rebuttal. 

    I'll need time to read and think about all of this. 

    Glad you popped in!

    Glad you took the time to listen to and actually think about what the priest actually said. 


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #35 on: December 07, 2023, 03:21:01 PM »
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  • True, but Tolkien's use of symbolism is much more subtle than (as an example, C.S. Lewis') allegory.

    An allegory is a narrative that cannot be read without getting "the message" (i.e. the tales of Narnia are unquestionably Christian).  Tolkien didn't like allegory and thought it was too specific, since there was only 1 interpretation allowed.  Thus, he used symbolism, which is why his works appeal to both Catholics and non-catholics.

    As you point out, once you start "delving into his works", you start to notice the Catholic details, and the hidden interpretation of many things is brought to light.  As an example, a normal reader can easily understand the "One Ring" as idea of temptation, lust for power, pride, etc.  But a deeper, more Catholic understanding of it is sinful human nature, which must be kept in check or it will destroy your entire world.
    Therein lies the greater richness and depth to Tolkien's work. :smirk:

    The One Ring....as thou hast said.....which is why sin requires God's grace through the Sacrifice of the Cross to help us overcome sin.

    We all are like Frodo in that sense, and we all have our Samwise Gamgees to help, in order that we might toss our Ring into the fires of Orodruin. 
    What I find a pain is that we have to put with all those damned Smeagol/Gollum types in life! :laugh1: Mercy and pity must stay the hand that wants to throttle those stinky slinkers!
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Online Persto

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #36 on: December 07, 2023, 08:04:22 PM »
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  • I got a little distracted from the topic as I was listening to the first talk. :laugh1: At time stamp 8:13, he mentions Louis de Wohl, author of numerous works of fiction on the saints (most of which I had read).  To my surprise, with the information here, and reading wikipedia & references, I learned:

    -He was a noble of Jєωιѕн Austrian and Hungarian descent, born in Germany in 1903. Aka: Ludwig von Wohl, born: Lajos Theodor Gaspar Adolf Wohl.
    -His mother a hereditary Baroness of Dreifus, Austria
    -Wikipedia: "born in Berlin to a poor Catholic family."
    -Started writing when he was 7, and was a successful novelist in his youth.
    -was a banker at age 17 around the time his father died, fired at  age 21. 
    -Became a dress designer & movie advertiser, a screenwriter, & had 16 of his novels made into movies when he was still in his 20-30's.
    -1928 wrote a book called Secret Service of the Sky (age 25)
    -Emigrated to Britain in 1935, age 32.
    -Astrologer, cigar smoker, liked to play cards for money, liked to dress up in women's clothes, usually wore a flowing robe or silken dressing gown, always prosperous & loved luxury and opulence.
    -Most of his objects of daily use were engraved with a baronial coat of arms.
    -Was not allowed to be a volunteer at the front during WWII because he was "not a British national" but in 1940 started working for British intelligence, MI5, as an astrologer in special ops & psychological warfare.
    -His autobiography was published in 1937 when he was only 34.
    Title: I Follow my Stars.
    -He wrote several other books on astrology.
    -In 1945-46 he retired from the military and "converted"  to Catholicism, but wrote his last book with astrological content in 1952, @ his work with MI5.
    -1953 Married a well known German novelist, Ruth Feiner (Jєωιѕн name) aka Ruth Magdalene Lorch.
    -He called himself the "modern Nostradamus." (from his MI5 file released in 2008).
    -Wrote a 1946 novel called Strange Daughter @ "Catholic astrology."
    -His wife was a Lady Commander of the Order of the Holy Sepulchre & he held the title of Knight Commander of the Holy Sepulchre.
    -Died age 58, in 1961, in Lucerne,Switzerland where he lived his last years.

    :confused: Lots of red flags here from start to finish. Would never have imagined this would be his bio.
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #37 on: December 07, 2023, 08:10:28 PM »
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  • Quote
    MITH: In Tolkien’s view, fiction is better rendered not without allegory, but where the allegory has a more generalized character—for instance, he described LotR is a “fundamentally religious and Catholic work” and that it was also an allegory of power (Letters 142 & 186). He said in another letter that “the only fully intelligible story is an allegory. And one finds, even in imperfect human 'literature', that the better and more consistent an allegory is the more easily it can be read 'just as a story'; and the better and more closely woven a story is the more easily can those so minded find allegory in it." (letter 109). Clearly, it just isn't true to say that Tolkien disliked allegory full stop and leave it at that.


    I do not deny that Tolkien stated in one of his letters that LOTR is a fundamentally religious and Catholic work. However I strongly dispute his claim. 

    Nor do I deny that Tolkien discussed allegory at length in both his written work and even in his lecture hall. It's part and parcel of being a professor of Literature. He was, I'm confident, an expert in his field. Nor do I imagine that he could completely omit to discuss allegory in relation to his canon of writing. 

    Question, Mith, since you seem to have studied this subject in depth. Can you produce any citations from Tolkien's essays or letters wherein he goes into greater detail about the quality of his work being fundamentally religious and Catholic? Or is the quote you provided a naked assertion, and one of its kind? 

    Similarly, does Tolkien anywhere discuss the inclusion, in his epic, of magic and of fantastical creatures/characters, in relation to his decision to exclude the true God from his universe, and also in relation to his decision to create a fictional creation account for his Middle Earth?

    If Tolkien resolved the questions for the Catholic reader, where can we read his own words?


     



    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #38 on: December 07, 2023, 08:38:00 PM »
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    MITH: This is kind of ironic… in the previous paragraph the critic-priest criticizes Tolkien for his dislike of allegory, and in this paragraph Tolkien’s problem is that he doesn’t trust enough in realism’s ability to transmit truth! You’ll have to pick one, you can’t have both .... But the problems with this criticism are even more serious than the criticism over allegory. For starters, the quote from Pearce is mangled beyond recognition.


    Seems to me, Mith, that you are twisting the priest's words and meanings into a pretzel. 

    First of all, I don't see where he mangled the quote. The essential meanings, both of Pearce's assertion and of the priest's restatement of Pearce's assertion, are identical. In fact, the priest gave part of the Pearce's quote verbatim: "For Tolkien, myth had virtually the opposite meaning. It was the only way that certain transcendent truths could be expressed in intelligible form." 

    Restated, the meaning is this: Tolkien had a unique conception of the role of mythology in literary form and structure, which was peculiar to him and which played a pivotal role in the construction of his narrative. (In my opinion, this is part of the justification or explanation for creating an imaginary, God-less universe and creation story.) 

    Ultimately there is no divergence of meaning between the priest's and Pearce's presentations of Tolkien's viewpoint. The priest sets up Tolkien's view of mythology as a fact, and as a fact which neither you nor Pearce can deny, given you both assert it. You may certainly oppose and contradict the priest's application of principles to this fact; but you cannot deny the fact itself. 

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #39 on: December 07, 2023, 08:49:44 PM »
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    MITH: Tolkien took myth to refer to the transcendental truths about reality, human nature, etc. and he preferred the mythic format to the “realistic novel” format for this very reason. Again, the critic-priest’s attempt to pigeon-hole Tolkien as being anti-Gospel or anti-Church is just vain.


    Tolkien had a massive idea in his mind, and had to decide by what literary mechanism he would "incarnate" it.

    His views on, and employment of mythologic formality, are exactly what you affirm - personal preferences, means chosen to accomplish his end. And as such, they belong to the subjective order.

    Notwithstanding, the finished body of work, once it flies out of the nest of his mind and his hand, is no longer properly his member, but a thing subsisting in itself - an artifice, a virtual substance. And as such, it belongs to the objective order, and is most certainly the proper object both of literary criticism and of ecclesiastical scrutiny.

    The priest is well within his rights and his authority.

    P.S. Finished for tonight. I'll read more of your post tomorrow. God bless you, and may the force be with you! :laugh1:

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #40 on: December 07, 2023, 10:34:23 PM »
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  • I have watched the first video and I have to say that I agree. LOTR is well written and has 'virtues' that many people in our current age are attracted to. But the 'pagan' elements corrupt the whole, I think many trads are giving it a free pass due to emotional reasons. I liked LOTR, they were entertaining movies (I have never read the books) but after I became traditional Catholic I started removing fictional works/video games/anime/manga/movies and all kinds of things from my life, I no longer can bring myself to spend time to consume media like it, it just doesn't entertain me anymore, I see all the 'little things'.

    A little leaven corrupteth the whole lump.
    [Galatians 5:9]

    Some will say that such works like LOTR helped bring them into the Church but God brings good out of all things, these things should only be a passing mark, something we thank God for for using for our salvation and leaving behind so it doesn't shackle us.


    Offline rum

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #41 on: December 08, 2023, 02:35:17 AM »
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  • I read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings back-to-back in my twenties and it's a fond memory. I'd have to reread them to get an updated view.

    The movies were garbage. You'll notice the hack Jew director Peter Jackson's following movie was King Kong, depicting a pretty white gentile woman in love with an ape (black boys) and the ugly jewboy Adrien Brody.

    However, holding true to the view that anyone in the public eye is Judaized by virtue of being in the public eye, J.R.R. Tolkien was Judaized:


    Quote
    He drafted two letters to Rütten & Loening; only one survives, and his biographer Humphrey Carpenter presumes that Unwin sent the other to Rütten & Loening. The surviving draft says[T 1]
    Quote
    I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-iranian... But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jєωιѕн origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.[T 1]

    "that gifted people."

    --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_and_race

    So Tolkien plays the same game that male celebrities play when they object to people viewing them as ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, while also declaring that there's nothing wrong with being ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.

    The fruit Thomas Merton once (twice, thrice?) expressed regret that he wasn't Jєωιѕн. And by "Jєωιѕн" not the Jews of the Old Testament but тαℓмυdic Jews.

    With Catholics like these who needs enemies?

    Jєωιѕн blood has meant nothing for 2000 years, according to the Church. The Jews who went on to compile the тαℓмυd are Children of the Devil.

    Both Tolkien and his buddy C.S. Lewis were heavily Judaized, which is the main reason the Jєωιѕн establishment in the 1930s-1960s promoted them so forcefully. Lewis even married a Jewess.

    I read somewhere, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Tolkien was a member of the British Monday Club. This was in the 1960s, when the official position of this club was to expel all non-whites from Britain. Maybe Tolkien learned a little too much a little too late.

    The Monday Club wasn't bold enough to suggest expelling Jews from Britain because the Monday Club is Judaized and always has been.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #42 on: December 08, 2023, 10:18:38 AM »
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  • Simeon, ultimately the priest's point is that Tolkein's works are not 100% catholic so we should not read them.  This is extremism.

    Our Lord spoke in parables and taught by way of fantastic examples (i.e. pearl of great price, the camel through the eye of the needle, etc).  God gave human nature an imagination, which part of our 'made-in-God's-image' power of creativity.  Tolkein used imagination and creativity to create a world where the natural law battle of good vs evil takes place.  Everything in his book is based on reality.

    1.  Wizards and magic - this is a real thing.  See witchcraft.  Tolkien just made his wizards (mostly) good.
    2.  Orcs, goblins, etc.  These things are mostly bad in LOTR lore.  These represent devils and evil men.
    3.  Elves, hobbits, men.  These are based on angels, men of simpler times (i.e. peaceful Catholic Middle Ages) and modern men.

    Etc, etc.  Stories and fantasy, much like parables, help to teach principles and truths far better than the "raw facts" of a boring classroom.  It's why fairy tales were invented - to teach children the dangers of strangers, and how to deal with life, in various situations.

    There's no need to go overboard on this.  God created imagination; this isn't the problem.  Tolkien used his gift to tell stories that uplift the human spirit and teach the benefit of natural virtues.  This is a good thing.

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #43 on: December 08, 2023, 10:46:29 AM »
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  • Why do some people read the books once and never give it a second thought and others become so obsessed to the point where it almost destroys their lives?   Likewise one person can read it as purely literature and someone else reads it and it alters their belief system.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Rethinking Tolkien
    « Reply #44 on: December 08, 2023, 02:28:20 PM »
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    Simeon: I agree that that is correct. My understanding is that gnosticism is a weave of a multiplicity of falsities, with a dash of corrupted Christianity thrown in. A sewer of heresy, and Pope St. Pius X might qualify it, and certainly the underpinning of the demon we call Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.

    Pax: That's not a standard definition of gnosticism and it's way too broad to use.



    Of course.

    I was agreeing with a statement made by GB, not defining anything. Therefore, no need for precision of language.



    Quote
    Pax: I don't know anyone who claims that LOTR is catholic, so the application of heresy is misguided.  Can't criticize a screwdriver for not being a hammer.

    You need only read this thread to understand that a rather large swath of traditional Catholics, mostly men, many of them priests, will go their graves arguing for the authentic Catholicity of Tolkien’s opus. My dear! only today the priest in his sermon gave a detailed recapitulation of the misapprehension of the character of Galadriel in the minds of the men of middle earth. He cited actual material from LOTR, including the “lore” that no one enters Lothlorien without being permanently changed by her (I paraphrase – he pretty much did not). He likened Our Lady to Galadriel, the “lady of the woods,” under the aspect of Her being misapprehended by many men.

    People write entire books on Tolkien, presenting the thesis that LOTR/Silmarillion is an authentically Catholic work. I’ve seen many comments on this forum and elsewhere online, where the arguments supporting this thesis get quite heated.

    I know you don’t live under a rock, Pax; therefore I don’t understand how you might assert that you don’t know anyone who claims LOTR is Catholic. I’ve had SSPX priests look me in the eye and insist it’s Catholic.



    Quote
    Pax: Simeon, ultimately the priest's point is that Tolkein's works are not 100% catholic so we should not read them.  This is extremism.

    You said you did not listen to the talks. I’ve listened to them three times – alpha to omega. The priest’s ultimate point is categorically NOT that Tolkien’s works are not 100% Catholic, ergo we should not read them. Nowhere does the priest set up the “not 100% Catholic” gold standard. You are the author of that standard. Do not put it in the mind and mouth of the priest.

    I know this man in real life. He is an avid consumer of literature. He does not condemn it. He recommends it, as part of the proper development of the human mind and character. He’s never not in the middle of some elevated work of fiction. I’ve listened to vast multitudes of his sermons and talks, and have corresponded with him privately. Nowhere will you ever find him propounding the artificial standard you have contrived in this thread.

    His ultimate point is that LOTR/Silmarillion is heretical and gnostic-leaning. The standard by which he judges it is the integral Catholic Faith. The principles he applies are the same that once governed the determinations on candidates for the Index.