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Author Topic: Questions on intoxication and drug use  (Read 9405 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2025, 09:13:20 PM »
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  • Any amount (everyone's different) where you start to loose your inhibitions is too much.…
    Even as regards alcohol, this statement is seriously deficient because it fails to address the intended purpose of consumption.

    Consider the agonizing pain of malignant bone metastases. The amount of opioids necessary to kill such pain is "disinhibitory," yet such use is well protected in Catholic moral theology.

    The application of the principle to the use of alcohol is outdated, but still worth mentioning. Alcohol was used medically to inhibit premature labor. Such use was also well-protected in Catholic moral theology. There are more efficacious alternative drugs available today, but, hypothetically, if such drugs were not timely available, a disinhibitory dose of alcohol would still be protected in Catholic moral theology.

    The principle can also be appropriately applied to the use of disinhibitory doses of marijuana (see the knock-down-drag-out thread from years ago on MJ medical and recreational use).

    Shocking to some, the case can also be made for disinhibitory doses of cocaine. Cocaine is the local anesthetic par excellence for surgical procedures on mucous membranes because not only is it an excellent local anesthetic, but is also an efficacious vasoconstrictor that reduces bleeding during the surgery).

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #16 on: March 01, 2025, 09:29:15 PM »
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  • This:


    Quote
    You can smoke cannabis and still retain reason, you can use cocaine and still retain reason

    Is a factual statement

    This:



    Quote
    You can smoke cannabis and deprive yourself of reason, you can use cocaine and deprive yourself of reason


    Is also a factual statement

    Your personal experience does not represent everyone who has ever used cannabis recreationally. I say again, considering the malice of the sin of drunkenness (depriving yourself of reason), using cannabis or cocaine is not necessarily a mortal sin
     

    You nailed that.

    Some folks fools think their anecdotal experiences are the supreme measure of all truth.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #17 on: March 02, 2025, 12:03:14 AM »
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  • The principle can also be appropriately applied to the use of disinhibitory doses of marijuana (see the knock-down-drag-out thread from years ago on MJ medical and recreational use).
    Is this the thread? 
    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/what's-the-purpose-of-smoking-marijuana-for-recreation/

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #18 on: March 02, 2025, 02:25:32 AM »
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  • Regarding laws. Personally I think cannabis laws banning the substance is unjust, mainly due to pharmaceutical lobbying.


    Also in Australia cannabis is illegal in all states except for Canberra (the captial ) which is where all the politicians live, really makes you think 🤔

    Quote
    In the Australian Capital Territory (ACT), adults over 18 can possess up to 50 grams of dried cannabis and 150 grams of wet cannabis. They can also grow up to two plants per person and four per household. However, it's illegal to sell recreational cannabis, including seeds and extracts, for personal or commercial gain.

    Possession limits

    Residents over 18 can possess up to 50 grams of dried cannabis and 150 grams of wet cannabis.

    They can grow up to two plants per person and four per household.

    Sale restrictions

    It's illegal to sell recreational cannabis, including seeds and extracts, for personal or commercial gain.

    Other restrictions

    The sale of recreational cannabis, including seeds and extracts, is illegal

    Related information

    The ACT was the first Australian jurisdiction to outlaw cannabis in 1926.

    Cannabis was grouped with morphine, cocaine, and heroin, even though it was used as a medicine or remedy in Australia at the time.
    Also even alcohol testing is very strict over here, you can't even have more than 2 drinks before you are over the limit for driving laws, and those laws also include riding bicycles and push scooters...

    Also they recently banned vaporisers even though smoking is worse than using a dry herb vape. Though nicotine vapes can be an issue, not due to the device itself but rather the nicotine liquids tend to have other chemicals in them due to them being sold "off market".

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #19 on: March 02, 2025, 02:56:13 AM »
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  • Even as regards alcohol, this statement is seriously deficient because it fails to address the intended purpose of consumption.

    Consider the agonizing pain of malignant bone metastases. The amount of opioids necessary to kill such pain is "disinhibitory," yet such use is well protected in Catholic moral theology.

    The application of the principle to the use of alcohol is outdated, but still worth mentioning. Alcohol was used medically to inhibit premature labor. Such use was also well-protected in Catholic moral theology. There are more efficacious alternative drugs available today, but, hypothetically, if such drugs were not timely available, a disinhibitory dose of alcohol would still be protected in Catholic moral theology.

    The principle can also be appropriately applied to the use of disinhibitory doses of marijuana (see the knock-down-drag-out thread from years ago on MJ medical and recreational use).

    Shocking to some, the case can also be made for disinhibitory doses of cocaine. Cocaine is the local anesthetic par excellence for surgical procedures on mucous membranes because not only is it an excellent local anesthetic, but is also an efficacious vasoconstrictor that reduces bleeding during the surgery).
    Also didn't one of the Pope use cocaine? Pope Leo 13, he used cocaine wine.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Marijuana research
    « Reply #20 on: March 02, 2025, 10:43:49 AM »
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  • Is this the thread?
    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/what's-the-purpose-of-smoking-marijuana-for-recreation/
    Not really the thread I had in mind. There were a handful of marijuana-related threads. That thread was more vituperation than factual.

    I think this thread was more data-driven and actually addressed (yet some avoided avoided addressing) the research:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/marijuana-use-sinful-for-catholics/

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #21 on: March 02, 2025, 11:18:02 AM »
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  • No matter where you go either to the supermarket, church, apartments or a hike in the woods, there is the smell of marijuana.  

    There are more people getting high than the 1960’s.   

    Many are dying because of the fetanyl in the marijuana.  Many people are becoming mentally ill because it’s really strong. 

    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #22 on: March 02, 2025, 11:43:11 AM »
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  • There you go again! To make a rational assessment of the liceity of medicinal or recreational use of marijuana requires an honest assessment of all the potential benefits and all the potential risks and to apply knowledge on a case-by-case basis.  It's been three years since the data were put before you, yet here you are again  employing factoids, falsehoods, emotionalism, and Geremia-like autistic one-liners.

    No matter where you go either to the supermarket, church, apartments or a hike in the woods, there is the smell of marijuana.

    There are more people getting high than the 1960’s.

    There are more people in 2025 USA (roughly 330,000,000) than in 1960 USA (roughly 180,000,000) .

    The percent of alcohol related fatalities has decreased about 50% since 1960.

    Try to make an honest effort of determining the net benefit to society and the application to specific cases.

    Many are dying because of the fetanyl [sic] in the marijuana.

    "Many"?  Some have died from fentanyl-laced marijuana, Fewer have died in alcohol-related fatalities. What is the net outcome for society?

    If you want to be taken seriously, make real comparisons of real trends, not just exaggerations, falsehoods, and factoids (sound like facts, but are misleading).


    Many people are becoming mentally ill because it’s really strong.

    Your statement is nonsense. Nobody "became" mentally ill due to marijuana. There is no causal connection between marijuana and mental illness. Certain mentally ill people (e.g., schizophrenics, schizoaffective disorder, and manic phase bipolars) can become worse, more disorganized, when they use marijuana.  Other mentally ill people (e.g., anxiety, depression) can become better, more organized and happier, when they use marijuana.

    As I have stated DOZENS of times to you here: the liceity of medicinal and recreational use of marijuana must be made on a case-by-case basis using knowledge, not nonsense.


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #23 on: March 02, 2025, 11:55:15 AM »
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  • Fact:  I shouldn’t have to be exposed to pot while I’m in public.   
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #24 on: March 02, 2025, 12:01:32 PM »
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  • “1. Opens the soul to demonic influence.

    2. Weakens moral judgement
    3. Promotes immorality
    4. Fosters narcissism
    5. Leads to moral pessimism
    6. Is socially and morally divisive 
    7. Promotes laziness toward Catholic works
    8. Promotes disobedience to priests and the Church
    9. Promotes disobedience to secular authority
    10.  Is a safety issue for children who's parents use.
    11. Causes neglect, and abuse of children by parents who use
    12. Dulls sense of guilt and is counter to Sacrament of Confession
    13. Profanes the reception of the Eucharist
    14. Is falsely equated with moderate use of alcohol 
    15. Often leads to use of other drugs
    16. Promotes secrecy and leads to animosity
    17. Promotes other crime
    18. Often destroys relationships
    19. Impedes the desire to attain heaven
    20. Leads to a liberal and worldly mindset 
    21. Retards emotions
    22. Wastes opportunities for good
    23 Impedes Christ's mandate to evangelize
    24 Denies Scripture's command to stay sober
    25 Denies the modest conduct of Our Lady
    26 Leads to the unforgivable sin of despair
    27 Is often its own object of worship 
    28. Causes certain kinds of brain damage
    29. Often leads to other addictions
    30. Inhibits holiness
    31. Is well founded in paganism, abhorred in Christendom
    32. Is proven by all the above to be a "sacrament" of the diabolic“


    Posted by Tradman 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #25 on: March 02, 2025, 12:20:09 PM »
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  • Your "facts" are merely foolish opinions that cannot be suported by any objective evidence.

    Recreational use of Marijuana


    1. Opens the soul to demonic influence.
    2. Weakens moral judgement
    3. Promotes immorality

    1-3: Potential loss of inhibition is dose-related, just as it is with alcohol. It is a manageable risk, just as it is with alcohol.


    4. Fosters narcissism
    5. Leads to moral pessimism

    4-5: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertions that I reject.

    6. Is socially and morally divisive

    6: Freeing slaves was socially and morally divisive and it was the right thing to do.
     
    7. Promotes laziness toward Catholic works

    7: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject.

    8. Promotes disobedience to priests and the Church

    8: Rubbish. There is no authoritative proscription explicit to MJ. MJ must be considered under the same moral theology as alcohol.

    9. Promotes disobedience to secular authority

    9: What part of "increasingly legalized" and "no longer a gateway to criminal world" don't you understand?

    10.  Is a safety issue for children who's parents use.
    11. Causes neglect, and abuse of children by parents who use

    10-11: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject. Cf. alcohol.

    12. Dulls sense of guilt and is counter to Sacrament of Confession

    12: Potential loss of inhibition is dose-related, just as it is with alcohol. It is a manageable risk, just as it is with alcohol.

    13. Profanes the reception of the Eucharist

    13: If an honest risk/benefit assessment makes its use sinless, there is no profanation.

    14. Is falsely equated with moderate use of alcohol

    14: CORRECT! Medically, alcohol is much less beneficial and much more toxic.
     
    15. Often leads to use of other drugs

    15: Long argued. Largely related to an illegal substance being obtained from criminals.

    16. Promotes secrecy and leads to animosity
    17. Promotes other crime
    18. Often destroys relationships
    19. Impedes the desire to attain heaven
    20. Leads to a liberal and worldly mindset
    21. Retards emotions

    16-21: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertions that I reject.

    22. Wastes opportunities for good

    22: Using a beneficial medicine increases opportunities for good.

    23 Impedes Christ's mandate to evangelize

    23: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject.

    24 Denies Scripture's command to stay sober

    24: As with alcohol.

    25 Denies the modest conduct of Our Lady
    26 Leads to the unforgivable sin of despair
    27 Is often its own object of worship

    25-27: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject.

    28. Causes certain kinds of brain damage

    28: Benefits certain types of "brain damage," e.g., multiple sclerosis, dystonias, et al.


    29. Often leads to other addictions

    25: see #15. Argument from Repetition.


    30. Inhibits holiness

    30: see #'s 1-3, 7-8, 12-13, 22-27. Argument from Repetition.

    31. Is well founded in paganism, abhorred in Christendom

    31: Pagans also breathe air and eat food. Ad hominem/guilt by association.

    32. Is proven by all the above to be a "sacrament" of the diabolic

    32: see #'s 1-31
     
    This list is by no means exhaustive, barely even scratches the surface. After it exceeded 21, I figured this was enough to get the picture.  If anyone disagrees, present your argument.  Whatever you do, don't smoke weed, rather, do penance for the salvation of souls.

    No. Your list is not exhaustive, just exhausting in its repetition of logical fallacies and utter lack of evidence.

    Yes. Do penance.



    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #26 on: March 02, 2025, 12:40:17 PM »
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  • May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #27 on: March 02, 2025, 12:42:17 PM »
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  • Your "facts" are merely foolish opinions that cannot be suported by any objective evidence.

    Recreational use of Marijuana


    1. Opens the soul to demonic influence.
    2. Weakens moral judgement
    3. Promotes immorality

    1-3: Potential loss of inhibition is dose-related, just as it is with alcohol. It is a manageable risk, just as it is with alcohol.


    4. Fosters narcissism
    5. Leads to moral pessimism

    4-5: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertions that I reject.

    6. Is socially and morally divisive

    6: Freeing slaves was socially and morally divisive and it was the right thing to do.
     
    7. Promotes laziness toward Catholic works

    7: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject.

    8. Promotes disobedience to priests and the Church

    8: Rubbish. There is no authoritative proscription explicit to MJ. MJ must be considered under the same moral theology as alcohol.

    9. Promotes disobedience to secular authority

    9: What part of "increasingly legalized" and "no longer a gateway to criminal world" don't you understand?

    10.  Is a safety issue for children who's parents use.
    11. Causes neglect, and abuse of children by parents who use

    10-11: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject. Cf. alcohol.

    12. Dulls sense of guilt and is counter to Sacrament of Confession

    12: Potential loss of inhibition is dose-related, just as it is with alcohol. It is a manageable risk, just as it is with alcohol.

    13. Profanes the reception of the Eucharist

    13: If an honest risk/benefit assessment makes its use sinless, there is no profanation.

    14. Is falsely equated with moderate use of alcohol

    14: CORRECT! Medically, alcohol is much less beneficial and much more toxic.
     
    15. Often leads to use of other drugs

    15: Long argued. Largely related to an illegal substance being obtained from criminals.

    16. Promotes secrecy and leads to animosity
    17. Promotes other crime
    18. Often destroys relationships
    19. Impedes the desire to attain heaven
    20. Leads to a liberal and worldly mindset
    21. Retards emotions

    16-21: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertions that I reject.

    22. Wastes opportunities for good

    22: Using a beneficial medicine increases opportunities for good.

    23 Impedes Christ's mandate to evangelize

    23: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject.

    24 Denies Scripture's command to stay sober

    24: As with alcohol.

    25 Denies the modest conduct of Our Lady
    26 Leads to the unforgivable sin of despair
    27 Is often its own object of worship

    25-27: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject.

    28. Causes certain kinds of brain damage

    28: Benefits certain types of "brain damage," e.g., multiple sclerosis, dystonias, et al.


    29. Often leads to other addictions

    25: see #15. Argument from Repetition.


    30. Inhibits holiness

    30: see #'s 1-3, 7-8, 12-13, 22-27. Argument from Repetition.

    31. Is well founded in paganism, abhorred in Christendom

    31: Pagans also breathe air and eat food. Ad hominem/guilt by association.

    32. Is proven by all the above to be a "sacrament" of the diabolic

    32: see #'s 1-31
     
    This list is by no means exhaustive, barely even scratches the surface. After it exceeded 21, I figured this was enough to get the picture.  If anyone disagrees, present your argument.  Whatever you do, don't smoke weed, rather, do penance for the salvation of souls.

    No. Your list is not exhaustive, just exhausting in its repetition of logical fallacies and utter lack of evidence.

    Yes. Do penance.

    Post is by Tradman. Not me.  I thought he made great points from a Catholic view. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #28 on: March 02, 2025, 12:43:15 PM »
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  • That post isn’t mine.  It is Tradman’s. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #29 on: March 02, 2025, 12:43:32 PM »
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  • Fact:  I shouldn’t have to be exposed to pot while I’m in public. 
    May God bless you and keep you