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Author Topic: Questions on intoxication and drug use  (Read 9402 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Questions on intoxication and drug use
« on: February 28, 2025, 08:26:55 PM »
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  • I have been wondering about the more precise understanding of drunkenness/intoxication for alcohol and other drugs. To preface, we know that alcohol cheers the heart of man according to scripture, and we know that God makes no useless things, so even extreme drugs like opium have their medicinal use.

    The question becomes what level of alcohol/drug use is not sinful. For alcohol there is a scientific measure, (see image 1)


    Quote
    The Dubowski alcohol table is the most widely used table to identify the stages of alcohol intoxication. The table was created by Professor Kurt M. Dubowski of the University of Oklahoma.

    The stages of intoxication are:


    • Subclinical intoxication: Also known as sobriety, this is the first stage of intoxication.

    • Euphoria: Also known as being "tipsy", this stage occurs when a person's blood alcohol content (BAC) is between 0.03 and 0.12.

    • Excitement: This stage occurs when a person's BAC is between 0.09% and 0.25%.

    • Confusion: This stage occurs when a person's BAC is between 0.18% and 0.30%.

    • Stupor: This stage occurs when a person's BAC is between 0.25% and 0.49%.

    • Coma: This stage can occur as a result of intoxication.

    • Death: This stage can occur as a result of intoxication.


    So at what levels roughly would these correspond to Catholic teaching on sinfulness? Also how does this work for other drugs, eg; marijuana, as there is a big difference in the types of intoxication between substances.


    For example, a small amount of marijuana could make you feel high yet not make you lose control, (also anxiety with weed can effect behaviour and judgement which is why some people chose to mix weed with either alcohol or nicotine in order to remove the anxiety). While a small amount of alcohol could also make you feel something yet not lose control, though the type of 'feeling' from each substance can different as it's a different chemical effect on your body.

    There is also a difference between CBD and THC in cannabis.

    Quote
    CBD in very high concentrations is reported to produce an uplifting effect, but not a ``buzz''. CBD may help you feel relaxed or less anxious

    Cannabidiol (CBD) is one of the main active compounds in cannabis. It's a psychoactive chemical, but it doesn't cause an intoxicating “high” the way that tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) does. That's because CBD interacts differently than THC with the receptors (binding sites) in your brain.1
    Over the last decades there has been growing recreational and medicinal use of cannabis, some stating that if low dosages of alcohol is fine and not a sin then low doses of THC can be fine and not a sin. Common arguments including "it's a natural plant"


    What is a reasonable Catholic perspective on this? I do like to hear from those with theologian training as they can give a more level and less biased take, and I think there is also a lot of bias from older people due to proper-gander "weed = le bad coz tv said so" which leads to extremism, "oh you can't have this drug at all but you can have alcohol/nicotine in a reasonable amount" which honestly doesn't sound reasonable to me, if someone needs to relax and cope with low doses of alcohol or smokes should it not be expected that other 'low impact' drugs can also be used in a reasonable amount to cope/relax? (I am not suggesting extreme drugs like meth as those are well extreme, also I am unsure about how 'hard' cocaine is, and of course there are opioids and even caffeine is a drug, which some people are dependant on)

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #1 on: February 28, 2025, 08:53:31 PM »
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  • Any amount (everyone's different) where you start to loose your inhibitions is too much.
    If you can feel the affects it's too much.
    Unfortunately anyone who has imbibed is not a good judge of their condition.
    People say they take it to relax, starting to relax is starting to loose your inhibitions.
    One or two drinks is probably enough.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #2 on: February 28, 2025, 09:14:24 PM »
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  • I would think somewhere within the 0.09-0.25 range would be "complete drunkenness"


    So I think other drug use may not necessarily be mortally sinful considering what the malice of drunkenness is, namely depriving yourself of moral judgement/reason. You can smoke cannabis and still retain reason, you can use cocaine and still retain reason. (I don't do either, nor do I drink :laugh1:)
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #3 on: March 01, 2025, 04:19:12 AM »
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  • I’ve been subclinically intoxicated my entire life with one exception as a college freshman. Do not drink two mugs full of “trash bin gin” on an empty stomach in a darkened room full of secondhand marijuana smoke while watching a bootlegged VCR of Blazing Saddles. 

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #4 on: March 01, 2025, 09:03:07 AM »
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  • I’ve been subclinically intoxicated my entire life with one exception as a college freshman. Do not drink two mugs full of “trash bin gin” on an empty stomach in a darkened room full of secondhand marijuana smoke while watching a bootlegged VCR of Blazing Saddles.
    :confused::confused::confused:


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #5 on: March 01, 2025, 03:56:55 PM »
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  •  You can smoke cannabis and still retain reason, you can use cocaine and still retain reason. (I don't do either, nor do I drink :laugh1:)
    It's obvious you don't do either otherwise you'd know how silly that statement is.

    About 45 years ago my cousin and I went to an early movie.  This was a time when smoking was allowed in movie theaters.  All through the movie I kept thinking someone must be smoking american cigarettes as canadian cigarettes smelled distinctly different.

    Well I was driving home and although I tend to have a slightly heavier foot, I kept slowing the car down as I was really speeding except when I looked at the speedometer I was going 10 MPH.  I told my cousin there must be something wrong with the car as I was really having to concentrate to drive.

    Thankfully we made it home OK but now looking back (I was so clueless about drugs back then) I was totally stoned.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #6 on: March 01, 2025, 04:45:43 PM »
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  • It's obvious you don't do either otherwise you'd know how silly that statement is.

    About 45 years ago my cousin and I went to an early movie.  This was a time when smoking was allowed in movie theaters.  All through the movie I kept thinking someone must be smoking american cigarettes as canadian cigarettes smelled distinctly different.

    Well I was driving home and although I tend to have a slightly heavier foot, I kept slowing the car down as I was really speeding except when I looked at the speedometer I was going 10 MPH.  I told my cousin there must be something wrong with the car as I was really having to concentrate to drive.

    Thankfully we made it home OK but now looking back (I was so clueless about drugs back then) I was totally stoned.
    So you got high off the second hand smoke? But you were still fine to drive despite feeling 'heavier'. Also if you were 'totally stoned' then wouldn't you have struggled a lot more than a heavier foot?

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #7 on: March 01, 2025, 04:55:29 PM »
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  • So you got high off the second hand smoke? But you were still fine to drive despite feeling 'heavier'. Also if you were 'totally stoned' then wouldn't you have struggled a lot more than a heavier foot?
    Yeah I got high from second hand smoke but I don't know what they were smoking.
    No I wasn't fine to drive.  My perception of space and speed were way off.
    As that was my one and only experience with weed/hash oil what ever, there's no way of knowing if I should or shouldn't have struggled more.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #8 on: March 01, 2025, 08:09:50 PM »
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  • It's obvious you don't do either otherwise you'd know how silly that statement is.

    About 45 years ago my cousin and I went to an early movie.  This was a time when smoking was allowed in movie theaters.  All through the movie I kept thinking someone must be smoking american cigarettes as canadian cigarettes smelled distinctly different.

    Well I was driving home and although I tend to have a slightly heavier foot, I kept slowing the car down as I was really speeding except when I looked at the speedometer I was going 10 MPH.  I told my cousin there must be something wrong with the car as I was really having to concentrate to drive.

    Thankfully we made it home OK but now looking back (I was so clueless about drugs back then) I was totally stoned.
    This:
    Quote
    You can smoke cannabis and still retain reason, you can use cocaine and still retain reason
    Is a factual statement

    This:
    Quote
    You can smoke cannabis and deprive yourself of reason, you can use cocaine and deprive yourself of reason

    Is also a factual statement

    Your personal experience does not represent everyone who has ever used cannabis recreationally. I say again, considering the malice of the sin of drunkenness (depriving yourself of reason), using cannabis or cocaine is not necessarily a mortal sin
     
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #9 on: March 01, 2025, 08:17:21 PM »
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  • If you can feel the affects it's too much.

    No.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #10 on: March 01, 2025, 08:22:00 PM »
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  • I have never been drunk or done any drug in my life, but, from what I've read, cocaine is a far more dangerous drug for both for society and for the individual than cannabis.

    Cocaine makes people feel powerful and do dangerous and harmful things. This can be done even without complete loss of reason. Of course cannabis is also bad, but it makes you just stupid and groggy, not dangerous, as far as I know.

    Cocaine is also dangerous for your heart, and will leave you paranoid and depressed after the effects go away.

    If you must use something, do legal drugs. A nice pipe filled with tobacco and one or two glasses of wine won't do you harm. I don't drink alcohol at all, but I will smoke a pipe on occasion.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #11 on: March 01, 2025, 08:28:43 PM »
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  • So, as per Jone and others, obviously the criterion for grave sin is when you lose control of your rational faculties to the that you'd be inclined to commit a grave sin that you would not have without said impairment.  Now, this may vary from one individual to another, as there are angry drunks who will become violent and thrash their family, for instance, and there are immoral drunks who will commit sins against purity ... but there are also some who would not react that way.  Finally, there may be proportionately-grave reasons to justify being intoxicated to the point of losing control of your faculties, e.g. serious pain (getting drunk to undergo surgery, no different than if you were taking morphine or something similar).

    Similarly, lesser degrees of intoxication may be sinful if there's no (less grave) proportionate reason, i.e. you're just doing it for the euphoria, in that this can lead to a certain amount of dissolution (even if not grave sin) where you're in a condition where you lack serious and reverent thoughts about God and the Catholic faith ... but if you have reasons such as being prone to anxiety and need to relax after stress (vs. euphoria for euphoria's sake), or even just to be social (some people become more social when slightly intoxicated), etc. ... just something that's conducive to the good of your nature and therefore your soul, it can certainly be without any sin whatsoever to become slightly intoxicated.

    Precisely which substance you're talking about doesn't figure in per se, but it can be accidentally more grave.  So, for instance, certain drugs are very likely to get you hooked for life even with a single use, and risking becoming an addict would be a grave sin, where addicts often end up in lives of crime and sin, where they need to steal or prostitute themselves in order to finance their habit, and they can lose their jobs and their ability to provide for their family, and that's even if it's not super-addictive but simply illegal where if they got caught (with some random drug test at work) or else were caught in possessions, and therefore risked getting fired, that would be a grave sin just on those grounds.  So, for instance, in my case, even though I see no moral problem per se with a tiny bit of micro-dosing THC (you could microdose to relieve anxiety without any highs or danger of losing control of your rational faculties), it would still be grave sin per accidens for me because my job does random drug tests and if any showed up in my system I'd be terminated immediately, and I would then be unable to provide for my family.  Finally, it's sinful also to not obey just laws, so if there's a just law in place regarding drugs and you disobey it without proportionate justification, that could be a sin on its own right.  But these last considerations render it immoral on other grounds extrinsic to the actual effects of the drugs themselves.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #12 on: March 01, 2025, 08:34:32 PM »
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  • I have never been drunk or done any drug in my life, but, from what I've read, cocaine is a far more dangerous drug for both for society and for the individual than cannabis.

    As mentioned, THC is more likely to constitute grave sin by itself since it does very quickly and easily render individuals bereft of control via their higher faculties, whereas cocaine is far more dangerous per accidens in that even if you don't lose control of your faculties, it's incredibly addictive where often people get hooked for life just trying it once, and from there it quickly degenerates into losing your job and then committing crimes and sins to feed the habit.  Those types of "instant addiction" drugs are mortal sin per se, unless perhaps administered in a medical context and you're properly weened off of them.  So trying even a small amount even once of those types of highly-addictive substances would IMO constitute grave sin even if you don't end up losing control of your faculties or even getting hooked, due to the high chance that you MIGHT get hooked on those drugs.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #13 on: March 01, 2025, 08:39:24 PM »
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  • BTW, for anyone who's addicted to various opioids or even other similar things, look into a substance called kratom, which results in absolutely no impairment of the faculties but nevertheless does bind to the opioid receptors, blunting the withdrawal symptoms of not having opioids.  Scuм Big Pharma have been attempting to demonize it, but it's great stuff.  It can relieve pain and anxiety, without impairing faculties, but there is a danger of a lower level of addiction, similar to how people might be addicted to coffee.

    Similarly, there's a medicine from Eastern Europe that enabled me to quit tobacco very quickly that binds to nicotine receptors that takes that "edge" of quitting nicotine where you don't get irritable or angry, and you can get this stuff on Amazon despite evil Big Pharma trying to ban it and coming up with their own versions that had to be pulled from the market due to horrific side effects.  But the safe drugs with decades of safety profile from Europe they try to suppress.  Just an aside thinking about binding to receptors.  I have been a solid and consistent nicotine user since about the mid-1990s, so for nearly 30 years, but this stuff let me kick the habit quickly and with very little duress.

    https://tinyurl.com/5dwp6fwh

    Offline FarmerWife

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    Re: Questions on intoxication and drug use
    « Reply #14 on: March 01, 2025, 08:44:56 PM »
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  • Pain killers (for example, the epidural) can derrive from opium, fentanyl, and morphine. And meth is in drugs to treat ADHD.