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Author Topic: New NFP booklet?  (Read 5219 times)

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Re: New NFP booklet?
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2017, 11:33:31 PM »

This NFP and Christian Moral Code is a reprint of the old edition with updates, and covers all the discussions being brought up here, including the overreach of Pius XII, Billings, and Casti Connubii (an excellent docuмent on marriage). Fr. Wathen said it was the best thing he knew of which exposed NFP for what it is: a Catholic novelty.  It was Archbishop Murray of St. Paul who commissioned Jeanne Dvorak's mother in his name to oppose it whenever she had the opportunity, even if it be in public (and even if it involved publicly reprimanding priests disobedient to the Archbishop's directives against propagating NFP).   

Re: New NFP booklet?
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2017, 12:08:05 AM »
My 2 cents...

God gave us NFP.  He doesn't make mistakes.  However, He gave it to us to use only for a serious reason and you will answer to God for your decision and choice.   What would be a serious reason?  Talk to your spiritual advisor because many things come in to play.

The problem today is twofold:
1. Lack of proper Catholic education prior to marriage
2. Selfishness.

These problems cause an abuse of NFP.

We should be grateful to God for the children He blesses us with, remembering He designs all things and as long as we cooperate with His design everything will work out.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New NFP booklet?
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2017, 08:10:50 AM »
That being the case, I think that to "frustrate the primary end" is more or less controvertible with "subordinating the primary end to secondary ends."  They're not two different things and Pope Pius XII didn't "ignore" anything by treating the one and not the other.

Where the footnote appears in Pius XII to CC, he's citing the phrase in CC that's universally understood to refer to things like artificial birth control and onanism (I forget the Latin offhand).  He then goes on to speak about how NFP might be permitted under various circuмstances.  But he simply DID NOT ADDRESS the principle taught by Pius XI in CC that the primary ends cannot be subordinated to the secondary.  In order to establish the permissibility of NFP, after the teaching of Pius XI, one would have to explain how attempting to thwart the primary end so that the secondary end can be enjoyed without the burdens that might come with it is NOT subordinating the primary end to the secondary.  No one has ever provided a satisfactory explanation for this.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New NFP booklet?
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2017, 08:24:49 AM »
Mental prioritization isn't the same thing as proper subordination, which in the context of CC and the natural law follows from some act.  I may prioritize the taste of a meal over its nutritive qualities, and I may be motivated to eat the meal because of its smell or appearance rather than out of a Aristotelian appreciation for its participation in an intricate network of causality and ends.  And in so doing I would never be subordinating the primary end of consuming the meal to a secondary end.  That's just boilerplate human behavior.  Now, if I eat the meal and then go to the bathroom and purge, I'm frustrating the primary end of nutritive consumption and subordinating it to secondary ends.
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So if you want to argue that there is devious, even sinful intent in having marital relations only in sterile periods, let's argue that, but let's just be really clear that such an argument has nothing to do with the natural law, frustration, or the subordination of ends.  
...
Condoms.  Birth Control Pills.  And so on.  Those all directly frustrate (not avoid) the power of the act in a way that makes the realization of its primary end virtually impossible.  That is true subordination.  What you're describing is, at worst, an interior disposition of "not wanting to conceive right now."  Not a perversion of the act itself, which is the problem with birth control.

You open this argument with stating that mental prioritization is not the same as subordination ... but then go on to conflate the two.  Obviously, the couple need not be thinking, every single time they have relations, "Yes, indeed, the MAIN reason we want to do this is to conceive a child and only secondarily do we want these other things."  Some Church Fathers would argue that this would be venially sinful, but that's a digression.  In any case, no, obviously mental prioritization is NOT the same thing as subordination.  Indeed, if a couple were to engage in marital relations primarily because they gave into passion or desire and weren't really consciously thinking about having children, this is not tantamount to subordination.

But what part of this do you not understand?  WITH NFP A COUPLE IS ACTIVELY ATTEMPTING TO THWART THE PRIMARY END OF MARITAL RELATIONS SO THAT THEY CAN ENJOY THE SECONDARY END WITHOUT THE POSSIBLE BURDENS THAT MIGHT COME WITH THE PRIMARY.

Nor is the thought of "not wanting to conceive right now" anywhere near the same thing as, again, read my lips, actively attempting to have marital relations ONLY during infertile periods so as to thwart the secondary ends.  So that's absolutely false that what I"m describing is "at worst, an interior disposition of 'not wanting to conceive right now'".  That's utter nonsense.  I am speaking about nothing of the sort.  Indeed, a married person might even think, after having engaged in marital relations during a fertile period, "Boy I hope we don't get pregnant right now; we're really having trouble with money lately."  Again, that is not even close to the same thing that I am describing, much less "at worst".  What I'm talking about is the FORMAL INTENT to frustrate the primary end.  "Hey, we're going to deliberately go about having marital relations ONLY during infertile periods so that we can prevent pregnancy."

I've ALREADY CONCEDED that NFP does not involve a perversion of the act itself.  So why are you arguing this?  I'm talking about the FORMAL INTENT to thwart the primary end while enjoy the secondary.  That is subordination.  Period.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New NFP booklet?
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2017, 08:33:33 AM »
Well, it's permissible because it isn't intrinsically immoral, and only when the conditions set down by Pius XII are met.  Those include a grave reason and as I recall, consultation with one's confessor.  Point just being that I'm in this for Pius XII's honor, not because I have any interest in defending the gross abuses in the Novus Ordo, where NFP is taught indiscriminately as something that married couples "just do" because it's "all natural" or whatever other tripe.  I hope you understand that.

I've already anticipated ... and addressed ... this objection.  I know that this is why NFPers think it's OK ... because it is not intrinsically immoral to have relations during infertile periods.  Nor is it even intrinsically immoral to have relations only during infertile periods ... assuming it just happened to work out that way (let's say one of the spouses was sick during the fertile period).  It's ALL ABOUT THE INTENT.  "Hey, honey, let's try to avoid having relations when you're fertile.  I really want to have relations but I don't want to have children right now."  [THAT IS A MORTAL SIN AND A VIOLATION OF THE SUBORDINATION PRINCIPLE].  Period.

Just try to be careful about falling for nonsense and for bad moral principles for the "honor" of Pius XII.  Pius XII opened the door to evolution.  Pius XII opened the gates to Catholic birth control, aka NFP.  Pius XII appointed Bugnini to begin the liturgical experimentations.  Pius XII held the first ecuмenical conferences.  Pius XII appointed the vast majority of the bishops who went on to bring us Vatican II.  Pius XII blundered big time here ... just as he did by paying lip service to evolution.  So, basically, you're admitting that you've already decided this matter by virtue of your desire to defend Pius XII and are not looking at it objectively based on the arguments.  Unfortunately, the speculations of Pius XII have led to "dishonor" for the Church as Protestants rightly mock the Catholic Church for promoting natural birth control in NFP.