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Author Topic: Modesty for Men  (Read 10737 times)

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Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Modesty for Men
« on: July 27, 2007, 09:58:22 AM »
I know that there is a Catholic standard of modesty in dress for women.  But
is there also a standard of dress for men?


  Absolutely there is, for exactly the same principles apply for men as for
women.

    Modesty is a moral virtue, and a part of the virtue of temperance, by
which a person brings moderation to his outward and inward actions (inasmuch
as they can be reflected by certain exterior signs), in order to keep them
under the control of right reason (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae Q.160, a.2).
Saint Thomas Aquinas lists four kinds of modesty in ordinary matters, that
are obligatory for everybody:

-        One is the movement of the mind towards some excellence, and this
is moderated by humility.

-        The second is the desire of things pertaining to knowledge, and
this is moderated by studiousness which is opposed to curiosity.

-       The third regards bodily movements and actions (including words),
which require to be done becomingly and honestly, whether we act seriously
or in play.

-       The fourth regards outward show, for instance in dress and the
like. (Ibid.)

    If all four aspects of modesty are equally important, there remains no
doubt that the last two, which have no special name, are most commonly
understood by the term modesty. Moreover, it is most especially the last
that is referred to by modesty, on account of the disorder of fallen human
nature, which is most easily overcome by a disordered attraction to the last
kind of immodesty.

    Clearly men have an equal duty as women to avoid provocative words or
actions and to avoid any kind of dress that might show off their person or
their body, leading to vanity. Like women, they are hence forbidden to
display their bodies in public in an unseemly manner, or in a way that might
produce a disordered attraction in the opposite sex. Men should always wear
a shirt for gymnastics, and shorts should not be worn in public, but only be
used for athletics, and should not be too brief or too tight. Likewise, men
should dress modestly for Sunday Mass, with shirt, tie, jacket, trousers,
all of which symbolize a man's sense of responsibility, leading his family
by the orderly self-discipline of modest dress, and doing his duty in the
true worship of God.

     However, there are two important differences in the application of
these principles to men, as compared to women, and which are the reason why
the Church's docuмents on the subject refer to modesty in women. The first
is that the nature of a woman makes her much more prone to the temptation of
vanity, to show off her body, and the nature of a man makes him much more
tempted by seeing this. Consequently, the gravest and most dangerous
offenses against modesty, understood in its fourth and most restricted
meaning, namely as against purity, are by women.

    It is for this reason that the Church has been so much more adamant
about women's dress, as in the following quote from a decree of the Sacred
Congregation of the Council of January 18, 1930:

    His Holiness, Pius XI, has never ceased to inculcate in word and writing
that precept of Saint Paul (I Tim 2:5, 10) -"Women also in decent apparel;
adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety.as it becometh women
professing godliness with good works."

And on many occasions the same Supreme Pontiff has reproved and sharply
condemned the immodesty in dress which today is everywhere in vogue; even
among women and girls who are Catholics; a practice which does grave injury
to the crowning virtue and glory of women, and moreover unfortunately leads
not merely to their temporal disadvantage, but, what is worse, to their
eternal ruin and that of other souls.

It is no wonder, then, that Bishops and other Ordinaries of places, as
becomes ministers of Christ, have in their respective diocese unanimously
resisted in every way this licentious and shameless fashion and in doing so
have cheerfully and courageously borne the derision and ridicule sometimes
directed at them by the ill-disposed..

    There is a second reason why modesty of dress is especially applicable
to women over men. It is that there is a special form of immodesty that is
characteristic of our modern times, and it is the immodesty of women wearing
men's clothes, most notably pants and shorts. This undermines a woman's
psychological perception of herself, and of her difference from a man, which
in turn de-feminizes her, erodes natural respect between men and women,
removes the defense to over-familiarity, and eventually degrades the
relationships between men and women to the level of sensuality. It is this
form of immodesty which is ultimately by far the most destructive of human
relationships and of the virtue of purity.

     If, therefore, there is certainly a standard of modesty for men, it
must always be remembered that the battle for women's modesty is both much
more crucial and much more difficult to win.

    Real men will, however, teach and lead by their example. If they have a
difficult time insisting on the modesty of their wife or daughters, they
will remember to practice very precisely all the four kinds of modesty
mentioned above, and their admonitions will bear fruit.

 [Q&A from the Angelus - December 1999 by Father Scott]

Offline AnthonyPadua

  • Supporter
Re: Modesty for Men
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2024, 09:03:48 AM »
I know that there is a Catholic standard of modesty in dress for women.  But
is there also a standard of dress for men?


  Absolutely there is, for exactly the same principles apply for men as for
women.

    Modesty is a moral virtue, and a part of the virtue of temperance, by
which a person brings moderation to his outward and inward actions (inasmuch
as they can be reflected by certain exterior signs), in order to keep them
under the control of right reason (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae Q.160, a.2).
Saint Thomas Aquinas lists four kinds of modesty in ordinary matters, that
are obligatory for everybody:

-        One is the movement of the mind towards some excellence, and this
is moderated by humility.

-        The second is the desire of things pertaining to knowledge, and
this is moderated by studiousness which is opposed to curiosity.

-      The third regards bodily movements and actions (including words),
which require to be done becomingly and honestly, whether we act seriously
or in play.

-      The fourth regards outward show, for instance in dress and the
like. (Ibid.)

    If all four aspects of modesty are equally important, there remains no
doubt that the last two, which have no special name, are most commonly
understood by the term modesty. Moreover, it is most especially the last
that is referred to by modesty, on account of the disorder of fallen human
nature, which is most easily overcome by a disordered attraction to the last
kind of immodesty.

    Clearly men have an equal duty as women to avoid provocative words or
actions and to avoid any kind of dress that might show off their person or
their body, leading to vanity. Like women, they are hence forbidden to
display their bodies in public in an unseemly manner, or in a way that might
produce a disordered attraction in the opposite sex. Men should always wear
a shirt for gymnastics, and shorts should not be worn in public, but only be
used for athletics, and should not be too brief or too tight. Likewise, men
should dress modestly for Sunday Mass, with shirt, tie, jacket, trousers,
all of which symbolize a man's sense of responsibility, leading his family
by the orderly self-discipline of modest dress, and doing his duty in the
true worship of God.

    However, there are two important differences in the application of
these principles to men, as compared to women, and which are the reason why
the Church's docuмents on the subject refer to modesty in women. The first
is that the nature of a woman makes her much more prone to the temptation of
vanity, to show off her body, and the nature of a man makes him much more
tempted by seeing this. Consequently, the gravest and most dangerous
offenses against modesty, understood in its fourth and most restricted
meaning, namely as against purity, are by women.

    It is for this reason that the Church has been so much more adamant
about women's dress, as in the following quote from a decree of the Sacred
Congregation of the Council of January 18, 1930:

    His Holiness, Pius XI, has never ceased to inculcate in word and writing
that precept of Saint Paul (I Tim 2:5, 10) -"Women also in decent apparel;
adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety.as it becometh women
professing godliness with good works."

And on many occasions the same Supreme Pontiff has reproved and sharply
condemned the immodesty in dress which today is everywhere in vogue; even
among women and girls who are Catholics; a practice which does grave injury
to the crowning virtue and glory of women, and moreover unfortunately leads
not merely to their temporal disadvantage, but, what is worse, to their
eternal ruin and that of other souls.

It is no wonder, then, that Bishops and other Ordinaries of places, as
becomes ministers of Christ, have in their respective diocese unanimously
resisted in every way this licentious and shameless fashion and in doing so
have cheerfully and courageously borne the derision and ridicule sometimes
directed at them by the ill-disposed..

    There is a second reason why modesty of dress is especially applicable
to women over men. It is that there is a special form of immodesty that is
characteristic of our modern times, and it is the immodesty of women wearing
men's clothes, most notably pants and shorts. This undermines a woman's
psychological perception of herself, and of her difference from a man, which
in turn de-feminizes her, erodes natural respect between men and women,
removes the defense to over-familiarity, and eventually degrades the
relationships between men and women to the level of sensuality. It is this
form of immodesty which is ultimately by far the most destructive of human
relationships and of the virtue of purity.

    If, therefore, there is certainly a standard of modesty for men, it
must always be remembered that the battle for women's modesty is both much
more crucial and much more difficult to win.

    Real men will, however, teach and lead by their example. If they have a
difficult time insisting on the modesty of their wife or daughters, they
will remember to practice very precisely all the four kinds of modesty
mentioned above, and their admonitions will bear fruit.

 [Q&A from the Angelus - December 1999 by Father Scott]
Good post. I have a question. How can men wear pants in hot weather? You would sweat very quickly in them without air conditioning.

Also
Quote
should dress modestly for Sunday Mass, with shirt, tie, jacket, trousers,

Can the jacket be taken off if it's hot? Also it doesn't specify if the shirt must be long sleeves.

Quote
removes the defense to over-familiarity, and eventually degrades the relationships between men and women to the level of sensuality. It is this form of immodesty which is ultimately by far the most destructive of human relationships and of the virtue of purity.
This is true, some girls at church wear clothing that is too tight making mass a place of temptation, and it reduces and blinds potential interest in those girls to lust rather than their beliefs, virtues and morals, personality and temperament.


Re: Modesty for Men
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2024, 09:08:17 AM »
Good post. I have a question. How can men wear pants in hot weather? You would sweat very quickly in them without air conditioning.

Also
Can the jacket be taken off if it's hot? Also it doesn't specify if the shirt must be long sleeves.
This is true, some girls at church wear clothing that is too tight making mass a place of temptation, and it reduces and blinds potential interest in those girls to lust rather than their beliefs, virtues and morals, personality and temperament.
My husband works in pants in 100 degrees heat. And long sleeve work shirt to protect from sun.  Many who do landscape wear pants and long sleeve sweat shirts.  I notice many women from South America are wearing longer skirts and dresses.  I know one woman who bought a long dress and had it hemmed to fit for her new church which isn’t Catholic. 

On front page of diocesan newspaper.  Two young people holding a banner.  Both poorly dressed.  The worse was the young girl who was wearing a baggy oversized shirt and sweat pants and sneakers in church.    

Re: Modesty for Men
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2024, 09:12:34 AM »
Growing up in the 1970’s and 1980’s everyone dressed modest. It was part of society. 

Look at old yearbooks. I was looking at old 8th grade photo from 1958.  Boys and girls both dressed mature with hair combed.  School pictures today kids look like they crawled out of bed and hair dyed and un combed.  They have dark circles around their eyes and haven’t taken a bath.  Many parents are just clueless.

Email or write letters to clothing stores to be able of to buy clothing.  When I go to different stores and view the junior section, it mostly prostitute clothing for girls.

Young boys can dress better too when in public.  Years ago, many young men wore clean jeans and clean t shirt. 


Re: Modesty for Men
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2024, 09:53:50 AM »
-      The fourth regards outward show, for instance in dress and the
like. (Ibid.)
[...]
 

    Clearly men have an equal duty as women to avoid provocative words or
actions and to avoid any kind of dress that might show off their person or
their body, leading to vanity. Like women, they are hence forbidden to
display their bodies in public in an unseemly manner, or in a way that might
produce a disordered attraction in the opposite sex. Men should always wear
a shirt for gymnastics, and shorts should not be worn in public, but only be
used for athletics, and should not be too brief or too tight. Likewise, men
should dress modestly for Sunday Mass, with shirt, tie, jacket, trousers,
all of which symbolize a man's sense of responsibility, leading his family
by the orderly self-discipline of modest dress, and doing his duty in the
true worship of God.

    However, there are two important differences in the application of
these principles to men, as compared to women, and which are the reason why
the Church's docuмents on the subject refer to modesty in women. The first
is that the nature of a woman makes her much more prone to the temptation of
vanity, to show off her body, and the nature of a man makes him much more
tempted by seeing this. Consequently, the gravest and most dangerous
offenses against modesty, understood in its fourth and most restricted
meaning, namely as against purity, are by women.

Note the above is from 25 years ago.

Were the authors to look around today, they'd see the inversion of men primping for men. Some of it's the inverters for other inverters.

But a lot more is that too many men no longer have available to them the silent outward indicators of traditional masculinity to demonstrate to the other men around them. These indicators were never for the sake of pride and vanity, but rather that these men were indeed rightly doing their God-given work in their state in life. Fulfilled obligations quietly observed, then carry on for another day.

Peers have always been enforcers of shared morality, especially implicitly. A man is known by the company he keeps.