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Author Topic: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men  (Read 25904 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2017, 09:48:04 AM »
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  • I am sorry if I seemed like I was trying to correct you.

    Well, St. Catherine of Siena used to excoriate Pope Gregory XI for being away from Rome in Avignon, referring to him as a "timorous child" and not "manly"  She would begin by bowing, kneeling, kissing his ring, showing him the due respect ... before giving him a good tongue-lashing.  Women have their own minds and are entitled to their own opinions.  Men who are WRONG about something should welcome "correction" by a woman.  But the tone should still remain respectful and deferential overall.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #61 on: November 13, 2017, 09:50:41 AM »
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  • I'm pretty sure "error has no rights" is talking about doctrinal error so it wouldn't apply in a discussion about food.  But this is not an area I know much about.
    And I really do care about not coming across as correcting men when I express disagreement although I sometimes get carried away in a discussion.  
    Never mind ma'am. 

    Have "fun".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #62 on: November 13, 2017, 09:50:59 AM »
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  • Ma'am, don't fall for this; it's bullshit.

    Also, woman or man, rememember "Error has no rights."

    Yes and no.  Women are perfectly entitled to express their opinions and to DISAGREE with men about something.  "Correction" implies talking down to someone as if you're their superior.  I believe that the former is perfectly permissible, but the latter improper.  So it's not about the substance (e.g. the purported error), but rather about the tone.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #63 on: November 13, 2017, 11:50:04 AM »
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  • I am currently reading Herman Melville's "Moby Dick". 

    "Misogyny" is analogous to the Great Whale - it is being hunted but not found, although in the Gregory Peck movie version the great white whale sinks the boat taking everyone down with them - I haven't finished the book so no spoilers please!  I am finding the book to be an amazing read.  I expected to find it dull or stagnant or plodding but it's humorous, refreshing and insightful.  In our lives, the whale of misogyny is one we all are hunting with eagerness, seeing signs of it everywhere but proof of it hardly anywhere at all.   

    The concept of misogyny is a real head's women win, tails men lose, and those who stood on the sidelines and watched the coin toss without taking the woman's side are also guilty as charged.  Misogyny, as contemporary society practices it, is much worse than hunting the whale, it's used as a political weapon, not much different that the "when did you stop beating your wife" type of question. 

    Having said that, I myself have never seen any misogyny in the Traditional Catholic World. 


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #64 on: November 13, 2017, 11:58:38 AM »
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  • I am currently reading Herman Melville's "Moby Dick".

    "Misogyny" is analogous to the Great Whale - it is being hunted but not found, although in the Gregory Peck movie version the great white whale sinks the boat taking everyone down with them - I haven't finished the book so no spoilers please!  I am finding the book to be an amazing read.  I expected to find it dull or stagnant or plodding but it's humorous, refreshing and insightful.  In our lives, the whale of misogyny is one we all are hunting with eagerness, seeing signs of it everywhere but proof of it hardly anywhere at all.  

    The concept of misogyny is a real head's women win, tails men lose, and those who stood on the sidelines and watched the coin toss without taking the woman's side are also guilty as charged.  Misogyny, as contemporary society practices it, is much worse than hunting the whale, it's used as a political weapon, not much different that the "when did you stop beating your wife" type of question.

    Having said that, I myself have never seen any misogyny in the Traditional Catholic World.
    Stand by to be accused of being blind, a liar, or some such other effort to negate your personal experience.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #65 on: November 13, 2017, 12:34:24 PM »
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  • That does not sound misogynist to me.  I should note that St. Thomas Aquinas taught that a woman would be under her husband's authority even if the Fall had not occurred.  It should not be seen simply as a punishment but as part of God's order for creation.

    I figured I should include a quote from the Summa (First Part . Question 92. Art 1) since my summary did not really capture his nuances and distinctions.
    Quote
    Subjection is twofold. One is servile, by virtue of which a superior makes use of a subject for his own benefit; and this kind of subjection began after sin. There is another kind of subjection which is called economic or civil, whereby the superior makes use of his subjects for their own benefit and good; and this kind of subjection existed even before sin. For good order would have been wanting in the human family if some were not governed by others wiser than themselves. So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in man the discretion of reason predominates.

    Offline tradosaurus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #66 on: November 13, 2017, 04:33:36 PM »
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  • Ma'am, don't fall for this; it's bullshit.

    Also, woman or man, remember "Error has no rights."
    What's B.S.?
    Women and men have different roles and women are to be subservient as men are to be leaders.  This is the Catholic way.
    Boys and men have become effeminized due to women being propped up as being equal to men.  Women are taught to be equal to men so that in marriage there is no clear leader and the likelihood of boys becoming queers and girls becoming lesbians is greater.  That's why idea of women voting is morally wrong because a woman should never vote against her husband.
    1 Tim 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #67 on: November 13, 2017, 08:23:43 PM »
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  • Tradosaurus, could you please explain how this applies to women on forums? 


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #68 on: November 14, 2017, 01:48:24 AM »
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  • What's B.S.? ...
    I noticed you also replied in the "vegan" thread.  Do you believe trying to correct a man is good?  
    And most women, even those who claim to be Catholic, need reminding of their duties from God.  
    ... Women and men have different roles...

    >>> Generally

    and women are to be subservient as men are to be leaders.

    >>> Always?

     This is the Catholic way.

    >>> Generally

    Boys and men have become effeminized

    >>> Generally

    due to women being propped up as being equal

    >>> Define "equal"

     to men.

    >>> Lone gunman?

     Women are taught to be equal

    >>> There's that word again...

    to men so that in marriage there is no clear leader and the likelihood of boys becoming queers and girls becoming lesbians is greater.

    >>> Sole objective?

      That's why idea of women voting is morally wrong

    >>> While I haven't made a complete examination and breakdown of this assertion, if required to answer now I'd have to concur on this point. At the very least "It don't work", it hasn't worked, and I see zero indication of it ever working, at least to any good end.

    because a woman should never vote against her husband.

    >>> See, this is where the former qualification and reservation comes in. Example: what if her husband was voting for an objective evil, and the female had opportunity counteract it with her own? Again, I haven't broken this question down completely; it may be inherently wrong itself, but the question is there.

    1 Tim 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence."

    >>> Speaking of exams and breakdowns, have you bothered to look into what the Church says about this? For instance, I hope you don't mind really stupid, short lived kids oh lord of the manor, and trad manner, born. She know ASL? Kind of a bummer, because I kinda like women's voices sometimes, depending on what they're expressing.

    Offline tradosaurus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #69 on: November 14, 2017, 06:30:38 AM »
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  • Quote
    Posted by: DZ PLEASE
    « on: Today at 01:48:24 AM »
    1 Tim 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence."

    >>> Speaking of exams and breakdowns, have you bothered to look into what the Church says about this? For instance, I hope you don't mind really stupid, short lived kids oh lord of the manor, and trad manner, born. She know ASL? Kind of a bummer, because I kinda like women's voices sometimes, depending on what they're expressing.

    You must enjoy swooping in on conversations with women and playing the white knight. 

    A Catholic forum would not allow women to converse with men.  The women should have their own section of the forum while the men can debate or discuss issues. 

    This is the Catholic way.  And the continuation of 1 Tim 2:12 sheds more light on what the Catholic Church teaches.  Basically, because woman caused the fall (was in the transgression) they are to worry about matters of the household, being a good wife and mother, and not acting like a man.

    1 Tim 2: 11-15  Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection.  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.  For Adam was first formed; then Eve.  And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression.  Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #70 on: November 14, 2017, 06:40:30 AM »
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  • You must enjoy swooping in on conversations with women and playing the white knight.

    >>> You must really enjoy introducing irrelevancies and rash attribution of motives.

    A Catholic forum would not allow women to converse with men.

    >>> Way to excommunicate, Your Holiness.

     The women should have their own section of the forum while the men can debate or discuss issues.

    >>> According to...? (hint, not you.)

    This is the Catholic way.  

    >>> (see prev.)

    And the continuation of 1 Tim 2:12 sheds more light on what the Catholic Church teaches.

    >>> (etc...)

    ...

    >>> Maybe this should be continued after you forsake the non-Catholic methodology, or at least show how it isn't; of course, that would be that requested, but whatever. 

    >>> Gratuitous offering likewise refused, either way; next?



    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #71 on: November 14, 2017, 06:45:39 AM »
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  • You must enjoy swooping in on conversations with women and playing the white knight.

    A Catholic forum would not allow women to converse with men.  The women should have their own section of the forum while the men can debate or discuss issues.

    This is the Catholic way.  And the continuation of 1 Tim 2:12 sheds more light on what the Catholic Church teaches.  Basically, because woman caused the fall (was in the transgression) they are to worry about matters of the household, being a good wife and mother, and not acting like a man.

    1 Tim 2: 11-15  Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection.  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.  For Adam was first formed; then Eve.  And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression.  Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.
    PS, and speaking of "Catholic way", I've reported this for the sole aim of enabling the site owners to defend themselves against your charges. 

    Only one of them is a woman (oh please let that not be a false assumption) BTW, so unless you wish to additionally charge me with being a "Bi-Knight"...

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #72 on: November 14, 2017, 06:55:32 AM »
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  • tradsaurus is not entirely incorrect -- the number of women who are capable of objectively discussing issues, without emotion is quite small.

    But then again, in 2017, the number of men who can abstract from themselves and discuss ideas without emotion is ALSO, unfortunately, quite small. Perhaps a slightly larger number, but there are still men who emote rather than think. So even if I made CathInfo "men only", I would still have to moderate the forum. So it wouldn't solve anything. In the practical realm, I've had to ban equal numbers of both (though I have no exact figures).

    So I'm just having mercy on the whole lot of humanity by providing a Traditional Catholic Forum where all traditional Catholics can stay in touch with what's going on, discuss important issues, etc. It has been, and is going to be, a lot of work.

    But from time to time, I'm forcibly reminded why some Trad fora are "men only". But I could say the same thing about sedevacantists -- some of them are quite dogmatic and rude about it, they love to argue about it constantly, they anathematize their opponents, etc. But the ones currently on CI don't match that description, or they would be gone. We've "collected" quite a few sane ones. Likewise, we've collected quite a number of women who can discuss things without getting bent out of shape, who aren't Feminist, etc.

    But as a matter of fact, the MAJORITY seem to have no problem being a member of an online discussion forum. That is why -- in both cases -- I'm OK with "opt out" rather than "opt in" membership, since the number of good eggs vastly outnumbers the number of bad. In other words, I find it easier to ban the few problem members than to restrict membership and selectively "white list" a few members. That system has worked for 11 years and counting, so I'm not about to change it.

    I have separate Mens and Womens forums for more sensitive matters, and that seems to be a perfect solution. Allow everyone on the forum, but give each sex a place to discuss topics which can't really be discussed in mixed company.

    So enjoy your conversation, may the best argument win, but please leave ME out of it. There is no need to come crying to mommy (or daddy) in the hopes of getting "parental weight" behind your argument. Just duke it out among yourselves, OK?
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #73 on: November 14, 2017, 08:07:51 AM »
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  • tradsaurus is not entirely incorrect -- the number of women who are capable of objectively discussing issues, without emotion is quite small.

    But then again, in 2017, the number of men who can abstract from themselves and discuss ideas without emotion is ALSO, unfortunately, quite small. Perhaps a slightly larger number, but there are still men who emote rather than think.
    As a woman, I see the situation the way that Matthew does, so he is not just saying that because he is a man. We live in a culture that promotes feeling over thinking and subjective over objective. It even affects men.

    While I don't think Scripture means that women should not be on forums and I have my husband's permission to participate, I can respect tradosaurus's view to some extent. I will refrain from addressing any comments to him. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #74 on: November 14, 2017, 08:18:39 AM »
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  • A Catholic forum would not allow women to converse with men.  The women should have their own section of the forum while the men can debate or discuss issues.

    I don't know, man.  I would have given my right arm to converse with St. Therese of Lisieux or St. Theresa of Avila or a large number of other women.  Women can have a great deal to offer.  I don't know that there's any strict prohibition on women making their thoughts known to men or even disagreeing with them.  Typically when men cop this attitude, it's a combination of 1) feeling threatened by women and 2) rigorous scrupulosity with regard to the Scripture passages cited.

    Men can easily feel threatened if a woman is superior to them in some way.  So, if a woman has greater intelligence or virtue or some other quality, a man can feel inferior ... and that can be difficult when women are supposed to be their subordinates in the order of nature.  But we can look to St. Joseph there.  He had authority over God and the Mother of God and was, I'm sure, constantly aware of his inferiority.