Author Topic: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men  (Read 3674 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
« on: November 01, 2017, 10:33:45 AM »
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  • I saw claims in another thread that misogyny is common among trads.  I have not see this myself, but I have few opportunities to observe men outside my family.  I haven't seen anything among the men I see at church that seems wrong.  On forums, I have seen men expressing anger and frustration with feminism, but I don't think this is misogyny.

    I am starting a new thread because this topic seems tangential to the thread where I saw the claims.  Also it was in the anonymous sub-forum which I really dislike.  
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #1 on: November 01, 2017, 10:48:55 AM »
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  • For myself, I haven't noticed as you described here or in my life, with the exception of one person here who sites the part in the Bible about women keeping quiet.  Noticing too it is brought up only when the woman disagrees with him, if the woman agrees with him it seems alright for her to speak.   :jester:  Therefore realizing his weakness I just ignore it.  

    I have always throughout my life gotten along with men better than women anyway.  However, my best friends have been women but men have shown me proper respect for the most part and I have no complaints.   



    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #2 on: November 01, 2017, 10:53:06 AM »
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  • I love women, and my standard for what that means is the Blessed Virgin.

    She is the Woman.

    For that cause I despise whatever not only falls short of that, but actively assaults it. 

    If someone has a problem with women being women, which objectively means Marian, then it is just that, their problem. 

    If "Mysogyne" means "Marian" then yes, I'm guilty.

    Please don't rabbit trail this into blaming men; start another thread, we're very easy targets.

    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #3 on: November 01, 2017, 12:02:26 PM »
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  • Of course you know my take on it, Jaynek.  I find a half dozen or so of these men at every Traditional chapel I've been too.  I've been to many over the years since I cut loose from SSPX seminary.

    I guess that misogyny needs to be defined, right?

    So, for instance, modern liberals would consider it misogynist to simply state that wives should obey their husbands.

    So we need to define misogyny before we can have a rational discussion about it.

    I see it manifested in the attitude that some men have that women, and their wives in particular, are somehow lesser human beings.  They justify this attitude with subjection theology, i.e. the correct notion that wives are subject to their husbands and subordinate to them.

    Subordination, however, does not necessarily mean inferiority.  So, for instance, Our Lord was subject to St. Joseph and Our Lady, and Our Lady to St. Joseph ... and so the order was actually inverted vis-a-vis their dignity.  Some women can be superior to some men in virtue.  Some women can be more intelligent than some men.  Some women can even be physically stronger than some men.  Misogynist men can feel threatened and insecure about this, so they find other ways to put women down.  Also, some men feel dominated by women when they have issues with purity.  Because they are dominated by their passions, and the women causes these passions, they perceive this as being dominated by women.

    Not only do these types regularly quote the passage about how wives should be subject to their husbands and how women should keep silent, but they talk down to their wives in very derogatory language.  They have double standards they impose on their wives to which they themselves don't adhere.  They can be downright cruel and don't care about their wives' feelings or overall well-being.

    Being cruel and uncaring doesn't necessarily by itself mean misogyny.  You could just be an a--hole.  But when this a--hole behavior towards women is justified in principle using theology, then it bleeds over into misogyny.  It's a PRINCIPLED acting like a--holes to women, treating them as their inferiors, as their servants/slaves, almost like people who exist for no other reason than to please them and to serve them, having no dignity on their own apart from their husband.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #4 on: November 01, 2017, 12:04:30 PM »
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  • I love women, and my standard for what that means is the Blessed Virgin.

    She is the Woman.

    For that cause I despise whatever not only falls short of that, but actively assaults it.

    If someone has a problem with women being women, which objectively means Marian, then it is just that, their problem.

    If "Mysogyne" means "Marian" then yes, I'm guilty.

    Please don't rabbit trail this into blaming men; start another thread, we're very easy targets.

    So you despise all women who fall short of Our Lady?  In other words, you despise all women except Our Lady?

    :facepalm:


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #5 on: November 01, 2017, 12:17:04 PM »
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  • Subordination, however, does not necessarily mean inferiority.  So, for instance, Our Lord was subject to St. Joseph and Our Lady, and Our Lady to St. Joseph ... and so the order was actually inverted vis-a-vis their dignity.  Some women can be superior to some men in virtue.  Some women can be more intelligent than some men.  Some women can even be physically stronger than some men. 
    St. Thomas Aquinas taught that women are inferior to men.  Do you consider him a misogynist?
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #6 on: November 01, 2017, 12:53:30 PM »
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  • St. Thomas Aquinas taught that women are inferior to men.  Do you consider him a misogynist?

    You're just failing to make the appropriate distinction ... as per usual.

    Before laying it out, let me ask you:

    Is Our Blessed Mother inferior to me?  I thought, at first, to say St. Joseph, but then thought, let's take it another step.  In fact, is Our Lady inferior the most depraved male Satanist serial killer who ever lived?

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #7 on: November 01, 2017, 12:57:10 PM »
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  • Of course you know my take on it, Jaynek.  I find a half dozen or so of these men at every Traditional chapel I've been too.  I've been to many over the years since I cut loose from SSPX seminary.

    I guess that misogyny needs to be defined, right?

    So, for instance, modern liberals would consider it misogynist to simply state that wives should obey their husbands.

    So we need to define misogyny before we can have a rational discussion about it.

    I see it manifested in the attitude that some men have that women, and their wives in particular, are somehow lesser human beings.  They justify this attitude with subjection theology, i.e. the correct notion that wives are subject to their husbands and subordinate to them.

    Subordination, however, does not necessarily mean inferiority.  So, for instance, Our Lord was subject to St. Joseph and Our Lady, and Our Lady to St. Joseph ... and so the order was actually inverted vis-a-vis their dignity.  Some women can be superior to some men in virtue.  Some women can be more intelligent than some men.  Some women can even be physically stronger than some men.  Misogynist men can feel threatened and insecure about this, so they find other ways to put women down.  Also, some men feel dominated by women when they have issues with purity.  Because they are dominated by their passions, and the women causes these passions, they perceive this as being dominated by women.

    Not only do these types regularly quote the passage about how wives should be subject to their husbands and how women should keep silent, but they talk down to their wives in very derogatory language.  They have double standards they impose on their wives to which they themselves don't adhere.  They can be downright cruel and don't care about their wives' feelings or overall well-being.

    Being cruel and uncaring doesn't necessarily by itself mean misogyny.  You could just be an a--hole.  But when this a--hole behavior towards women is justified in principle using theology, then it bleeds over into misogyny.  It's a PRINCIPLED acting like a--holes to women, treating them as their inferiors, as their servants/slaves, almost like people who exist for no other reason than to please them and to serve them, having no dignity on their own apart from their husband.
    .
    Traditionalists have a generally ruined notion of what authority is and why it's important, so it's hardly a surprise to see mistakes about authority creep into domestic life.  Good post.
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #8 on: November 01, 2017, 01:25:06 PM »
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  • So you despise all women who fall short of Our Lady?  In other words, you despise all women except Our Lady?

    :facepalm:
    You're twisting of words is why we don't have many; the most charitable take here is that you don't adequately attend to the words used, and not that you're just a habitual liar.

    " :facepalm:" yourself.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #9 on: November 01, 2017, 01:26:27 PM »
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  • You're just failing to make the appropriate distinction ... as per usual.

    Before laying it out, let me ask you:

    Is Our Blessed Mother inferior to me?  I thought, at first, to say St. Joseph, but then thought, let's take it another step.  In fact, is Our Lady inferior the most depraved male Satanist serial killer who ever lived?
    If you are not prepared to answer my question without making me answer a trick question first, then I will do without.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #10 on: November 01, 2017, 01:40:30 PM »
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  • If you are not prepared to answer my question without making me answer a trick question first, then I will do without.

    It's not a trick question.  Just requires the appropriate distinction to be applied.

    No one in their right mind would say that Our Lady is inferior to me.


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 01:42:39 PM »
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  • Your twisting of words is why we don't have many; the most charitable take here is that you don't adequately attend to the words used, and not that you're just a habitual liar.

    " :facepalm:" yourself.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Online Maria Regina

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 01:48:38 PM »
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  • No one in their right mind would say that Our Lady is inferior to me.
    No one but Satan would tempt any man to believe that he is superior to the Holy Virgin Mary.
    Our Lady is superior not only to Angels, Cherubim, and Seraphim, but also to men and women.
    This is one reason why Satan hates her so much. In his haughty pride and arrogance, he cannot be inferior to anyone, not even God Himself.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 01:50:49 PM »
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  • St. Thomas taught that female nature was inferior to male nature.

    If male nature is superior to female nature, than I am superior to Our Lady with respect to my nature.

    Let's take a simpler example.  Am I superior to a cheetah?

    When a cheetah and I are viewed from the perspective of our intellectual capacity, then indeed I am superior.

    But when a cheetah and I are viewed from the perspective of our ability to run, then I am inferior to a cheetah.

    I call this formal slicing (my short-hand term for this) ... and it's one of the first lessons in scholastic philosophy.

    Think of it as the "with respect to" (Latin quoad or secundum) distinction.

    I am superior to a cheetah with respect to intellectual capacity.  I am inferior to a cheetah with respect to running ability.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 01:52:35 PM »
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  • No one but Satan would tempt any man to believe that he is superior to the Holy Virgin Mary.
    Our Lady is superior not only to Angels, Cherubim, and Seraphim, but also to men and women.
    This is one reason why Satan hates her so much. In his haughty pride and arrogance, he cannot be inferior to anyone, not even God Himself.

    You're missing the context for this quotation.  Jaynek stated that men are superior to women.  Since I am a man, why I am not superior to Our Lady?  I answered this in the previous post.

     

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