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Author Topic: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men  (Read 25903 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2017, 05:47:03 PM »
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  • our society is still misogynistic
    women are expected to subservient to men. I feel that is more pronounced in the Midwest than maybe other places. I am just going off my own experiences/observations
    The Church teaches that a wife is subject to her husband.   Are you saying that this is misogynistic?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #46 on: November 06, 2017, 06:27:00 PM »
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  • The actual phrase used by St. Thomas is translated as "woman is defective and misbegotten," but people often paraphrase that as men are superior to women.  Ladislaus reasonably pointed out that St. Thomas is a nuanced writer who makes careful distinctions.  I should not have used a paraphrase, but rather an exact quote with enough context for the distinctions to be clear.

    I should probably have quoted at least this much:
    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1092.htm
    I apologize for my lack of clarity and any confusion I may have caused.

    Of course, by defect, St. Thomas doesn't mean that female nature is positively defective ... with the connotations of the modern English term which implies a positive disorder.  Defective means lacking or falling short, or, incomplete in a way, compared to the male nature.  Male nature is more complete.  We have to be careful in telling people that female nature is "defective" because that could easily be misunderstood as misogynist.  There was no defect in Our Blessed Mother ... not in the sense that this word connotes in modern English.


    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #47 on: November 06, 2017, 08:58:53 PM »
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  • And my understanding of men is based on my husband.  He is not simply an individual but the type through which I view men in general.  I expect men, especially trad men, normally to be good people.  I realize that there are exceptions.  I know that there are men who do bad things.  But they do these things, not because it is usual for male persons, but because it is a reflection of the fallen human condition.

    It is very natural for me to extend my positive feelings about my husband toward men in general.  I would probably do it to some extent without even thinking about it.  However, I also make a conscious decision to think this way because I see it as a way of resisting feminism.
    Thank you for explaining your rather bizarre behavior on this topic.
    Evidently, you live in a bubble and have illogically extended your personal experience to the Trads around you. You should get out more.
    You have no idea of what is "usual for male persons."
    I think if you had any idea of what your fellow churchgoers were capable of and what your fellow wives were subjected to, you would change your tune.

    Offline tradosaurus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #48 on: November 13, 2017, 08:05:05 AM »
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  • I saw claims in another thread that misogyny is common among trads.  I have not see this myself, but I have few opportunities to observe men outside my family.  I haven't seen anything among the men I see at church that seems wrong.  On forums, I have seen men expressing anger and frustration with feminism, but I don't think this is misogyny.

    I am starting a new thread because this topic seems tangential to the thread where I saw the claims.  Also it was in the anonymous sub-forum which I really dislike.  
    What does misogyny mean to you?

    Does Gen 3:16 sound misogynist when God punished woman: 
    "To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #49 on: November 13, 2017, 08:31:22 AM »
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  • Does Gen 3:16 sound misogynist when God punished woman:
    "To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee."
    That does not sound misogynist to me.  I should note that St. Thomas Aquinas taught that a woman would be under her husband's authority even if the Fall had not occurred.  It should not be seen simply as a punishment but as part of God's order for creation.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #50 on: November 13, 2017, 08:32:43 AM »
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  • Thank you for explaining your rather bizarre behavior on this topic.
    Evidently, you live in a bubble and have illogically extended your personal experience to the Trads around you. You should get out more.
    You have no idea of what is "usual for male persons."
    I think if you had any idea of what your fellow churchgoers were capable of and what your fellow wives were subjected to, you would change your tune.

    And there's obviously an "overcompensation" in the "resistance to feminism".  I speculated about this earlier, that, having been a feminist, now she's overreacting in the other direction.  We see that a LOT among Traditional Catholics.  You see something wrong in the Novus Ordo and you react TOO FAR in the other direction, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.  But, no, she can't be that incredibly naive to think that all men are like her husband.  It's a mental construct that's there as a coping mechanism due to regrets for certain past behaviors.  It almost comes across as a kind of self-loathing, usually rooted in pride ... except that it's being extended towards other women as well.

    Offline tradosaurus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #51 on: November 13, 2017, 08:38:24 AM »
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  • That does not sound misogynist to me.  I should note that St. Thomas Aquinas taught that a woman would be under her husband's authority even if the Fall had not occurred.  It should not be seen simply as a punishment but as part of God's order for creation.
    I noticed you also replied in the "vegan" thread.  Do you believe trying to correct a man is good?   
    And most women, even those who claim to be Catholic, need reminding of their duties from God.   

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #52 on: November 13, 2017, 08:39:58 AM »
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  • That does not sound misogynist to me.  I should note that St. Thomas Aquinas taught that a woman would be under her husband's authority even if the Fall had not occurred.  It should not be seen simply as a punishment but as part of God's order for creation.

    Nobody's accusing God of misogyny.  What's at issue here is the men who abuse this authority and make it about themselves ... leading to the poor treatment and derision of women.  Church Fathers discussed that the original relationship between man and a woman involved a natural complementarity, with the man being the more active principle and the woman more passive.  In the unfallen state, woman NATURALLY followed the man's lead.  But when that natural following of the man's lead broke down after the Fall, the state of "subjection" occurred, with subjection being an almost violent way to FORCE the re-establishment of that order which was naturally there without any need for violence.  It's a punishment in the sense that what was there naturally before now must be forced.  It's analogous to concupiscence.  In the unfallen state, the body NATURALLY followed the lead of the intellect and will.  But when this natural order broken down after the fall, man now has to bring the flesh into subjection by violently forcing it to comply with the intellect and will.  That's what this post-Fall subjection means ... both with regard to concupiscence of the flesh AND the man-woman relationship.  Yes, woman was always under the "authority" of the man, but that authority was simply a natural order.  After the Fall, it was necessary for constantly FORCE it to remain that way ... thus subjection.

    AUTHORITY is part of God's order for creation, but SUBJECTION is a consequence of the Fall.  [see the distinction above]


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #53 on: November 13, 2017, 08:44:04 AM »
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  • Thank you for explaining your rather bizarre behavior on this topic.
    Evidently, you live in a bubble and have illogically extended your personal experience to the Trads around you. You should get out more.
    You have no idea of what is "usual for male persons."
    I think if you had any idea of what your fellow churchgoers were capable of and what your fellow wives were subjected to, you would change your tune.
    I quite clearly wrote, "I know that there are men who do bad things," in the post to which you are responding.  It is a misrepresentation of my position to claim that I do not realize that.

    And you seem to have misunderstood my comment,   "But they do these things, not because it is usual for male persons, but because it is a reflection of the fallen human condition."  This was not a statement about the frequency of abuse but about its cause.   I was saying that the sinful human nature which men and women share leads to abuse, rather than there being something especially monstrous and evil about men.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #54 on: November 13, 2017, 08:45:01 AM »
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  • I think if you had any idea of what your fellow churchgoers were capable of and what your fellow wives were subjected to, you would change your tune.

    Indeed.  I see this all the time, and my heart breaks for the women who suffer at the hands like this.  And my problem with Jaynek is that she turns a blind eye to it and gives the impression of condoning all manner of bad behavior by men towards their wives ... invariably blaming the woman for any problems that might be there in the relationship.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #55 on: November 13, 2017, 08:45:38 AM »
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  • Evidently, you live in a bubble and have illogically extended your personal experience to the Trads around you. You should get out more.



    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #56 on: November 13, 2017, 08:46:25 AM »
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  • I noticed you also replied in the "vegan" thread.  Do you believe trying to correct a man is good?  
    And most women, even those who claim to be Catholic, need reminding of their duties from God.  
    I am sorry if I seemed like I was trying to correct you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #57 on: November 13, 2017, 08:52:13 AM »
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  •  I was saying that the sinful human nature which men and women share leads to abuse, rather than there being something especially monstrous and evil about men.

    Talk about misrepresenting our position.  Who EVER said that there's "something especially monstrous and evil about men".  Answer:  nobody.  You're somehow projecting the radical feminist contempt for men in general (misandry) onto us.  What we're saying is that a SIGNIFICANT NUMBER of men use "subjection theology" as an excuse to abuse their wives ... emotionally, spiritually, and sometimes physically, and that you appear to be playing right into that.  I see the Anonymous blowhard, for instance, being encouraged by all of your comments.  That is precisely THE kind of man I see out there abusing his wife, and you're merely encouraging him.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #58 on: November 13, 2017, 09:09:37 AM »
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  • I am sorry if I seemed like I was trying to correct you.
    Ma'am, don't fall for this; it's bullshit. 

    Also, woman or man, rememember "Error has no rights."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #59 on: November 13, 2017, 09:14:37 AM »
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  • Ma'am, don't fall for this; it's bullshit.

    Also, woman or man, rememember "Error has no rights."
    I'm pretty sure "error has no rights" is talking about doctrinal error so it wouldn't apply in a discussion about food.  But this is not an area I know much about.
    And I really do care about not coming across as correcting men when I express disagreement although I sometimes get carried away in a discussion.