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Author Topic: Lard on abstinence days  (Read 5948 times)

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Offline Friedrich N

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Lard on abstinence days
« on: February 02, 2024, 05:35:41 AM »
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    • Can I eat cooked rice that was initially sautéed using lard?

    For those who don't know — I myself didn't know it wasn't common practice all around the word heh —, "this is sometimes called 'pilaf style', though technically actual pilafs do not require the sauteeing step. […] The main function of this is to change the composition of the starch on the surface of the rice. This reduces the starches that cross-link and make rice sticky. It helps your rice to cook up into separate grains."

    An additional incovenience, it's already done and my mother would be upset if I refuse to eat it.

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #1 on: February 02, 2024, 05:55:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Friedrich N on February 02, 2024, 05:35:41 AM
    Can I eat cooked rice that was initially sautéed using lard?
    No.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #2 on: February 02, 2024, 06:08:15 AM »
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    • I asked a priest if I could eat chips fried in animal fat on Friday. He confirmed that I could. You mustn't eat meat or meat broth, but something cooked in animal fat is OK.  
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #3 on: February 02, 2024, 06:11:38 AM »
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    • If I remember correctly...

    The use of lard or dripping in preparing fish and vegetables at all meals and on all abstinence days is allowed in the U.S. by an indult issued 3 August, 1887.  (During the time of Pope Leo XIII)

    So...  It might depend on which country you live in?
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #4 on: February 02, 2024, 06:18:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 02, 2024, 05:55:38 AM
    No.
    Why is lard not allowed? What difference is it from having milk or butter on an abstinence day?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #5 on: February 02, 2024, 06:26:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on February 02, 2024, 06:18:20 AM
    Why is lard not allowed? What difference is it from having milk or butter on an abstinence day?
    I thought lard was made from pork fat. Pork is meat. The fat is not meat but there's bound to be at least some meat in it - it's just imo it's splitting hairs. I should have clarified my "No" with "it's not allowed for me." 

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #6 on: February 02, 2024, 06:29:15 AM »
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    • Not sure if this applied pre-Vatican II, but my understanding is that it must have the taste of meat, to fall under the prohibition.  To me, anyway, lard does not have a "meaty" taste.  In something such as a pie crust, you would have to be told that it contains lard.  
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #7 on: February 02, 2024, 06:36:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on February 02, 2024, 06:18:20 AM
    Why is lard not allowed? What difference is it from having milk or butter on an abstinence day?

    Good point.  Milk or butter contain the fat of the cow, albeit in mutated form.  Lard is just a clarified form of animal fat (and sows do give milk, though I've never had the pleasure).

    Side point, in her final days, my mother recalled that she was given goat milk as a child when she was sick, and I asked her if she'd like to get me some goat milk for her to drink, as she was only able to take liquid and pureed nutrition --- when she rallied one night, she asked for beer and pizza, which I indulged, but aside from that, it was pretty much just pudding, mashed potatoes, coffee, and so on.  The end came before I was able to track down some goat milk for her.

    Requiescat in pace.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #8 on: February 02, 2024, 06:39:21 AM »
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    • My bad, I was wrong......

    The law of abstinence forbids the eating of flesh meat and of broth made of meat, but does not exclude the use of eggs, milk and the products of milk (namely cheese and butter), and any seasonings of food, even those made from the fat of animals. (Canon 1250.)
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #9 on: February 02, 2024, 07:07:34 AM »
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    • I think that it's like most things in Church law, where we go not by the chemical composition of something but rather by what it seems to be from normal common perception.  Something used as a seasoning would likely not even be perceptible to the senses as meat or meat-like substance.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #10 on: February 02, 2024, 07:32:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 02, 2024, 06:39:21 AM
    My bad, I was wrong......

    The law of abstinence forbids the eating of flesh meat and of broth made of meat, but does not exclude the use of eggs, milk and the products of milk (namely cheese and butter), and any seasonings of food, even those made from the fat of animals. (Canon 1250.)
    The real question is gelatin which is found in many lollies.


    Manufacturers produce gelatin by processing animal bones, cartilage, and skin. They may use the bodies of cows or fish, for example. The process extracts the collagen, a fibrous protein that connects muscles, bones, and skin, and turns it into gelatin, a flavorless, colorless, jelly-like substance.
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    Offline Marcellinus

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #11 on: February 02, 2024, 07:54:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on February 02, 2024, 07:32:19 AM
    The real question is gelatin which is found in many lollies.


    Manufacturers produce gelatin by processing animal bones, cartilage, and skin. They may use the bodies of cows or fish, for example. The process extracts the collagen, a fibrous protein that connects muscles, bones, and skin, and turns it into gelatin, a flavorless, colorless, jelly-like substance.
    “The prohibition extends only to the flesh of mammals and birds, including the fat, blood, marrow, brains, heart, liver etc. Lawful foods are fish, frogs, turtles, snails, mussels, clams, oysters, crabs etc. ... Likewise lawful are margarine, and meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth, e.g. gelatine; likewise gelatine products of animal origin, but not soup cubes that contain meat ingredients.” -Jone, Moral Theology 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #12 on: February 02, 2024, 08:09:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marcellinus on February 02, 2024, 07:54:19 AM
    “The prohibition extends only to the flesh of mammals and birds, including the fat, blood, marrow, brains, heart, liver etc. Lawful foods are fish, frogs, turtles, snails, mussels, clams, oysters, crabs etc. ... Likewise lawful are margarine, and meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth, e.g. gelatine; likewise gelatine products of animal origin, but not soup cubes that contain meat ingredients.” -Jone, Moral Theology

    That's what I was saying above (the bolded), that the Church goes off common perception rather than chemical composition, so "meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth" are permitted.
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #13 on: February 02, 2024, 08:20:04 AM »
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    • Gelatin and other meat by-products are found in many prescription medication. Oops.  The only way to avoid this is to have your prescriptions compounded and unfortunately most insurance companies won't pay for that.

    What about bacon grease?  It retains a slight smoky flavor.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Lard on abstinence days
    « Reply #14 on: February 02, 2024, 08:26:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 02, 2024, 08:09:43 AM
    That's what I was saying above (the bolded), that the Church goes off common perception rather than chemical composition, so "meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth" are permitted.

    This is what I was getting at.  To me, lard has no meat taste whatsoever.  Bacon grease does.  I avoid bacon grease on Fridays, ditto things such as turnip greens that have some taste of meat from the seasoning in them.
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