Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Friedrich N on February 02, 2024, 05:35:41 AM
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Can I eat cooked rice that was initially sautéed using lard?
For those who don't know — I myself didn't know it wasn't common practice all around the word heh —, "this is sometimes called 'pilaf style', though technically actual pilafs do not require the sauteeing step. […] The main function of this is to change the composition of the starch on the surface of the rice. This reduces the starches that cross-link and make rice sticky. It helps your rice to cook up into separate grains."
An additional incovenience, it's already done and my mother would be upset if I refuse to eat it.
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Can I eat cooked rice that was initially sautéed using lard?
No.
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I asked a priest if I could eat chips fried in animal fat on Friday. He confirmed that I could. You mustn't eat meat or meat broth, but something cooked in animal fat is OK.
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If I remember correctly...
The use of lard or dripping in preparing fish and vegetables at all meals and on all abstinence days is allowed in the U.S. by an indult issued 3 August, 1887. (During the time of Pope Leo XIII)
So... It might depend on which country you live in?
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No.
Why is lard not allowed? What difference is it from having milk or butter on an abstinence day?
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Why is lard not allowed? What difference is it from having milk or butter on an abstinence day?
I thought lard was made from pork fat. Pork is meat. The fat is not meat but there's bound to be at least some meat in it - it's just imo it's splitting hairs. I should have clarified my "No" with "it's not allowed for me."
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Not sure if this applied pre-Vatican II, but my understanding is that it must have the taste of meat, to fall under the prohibition. To me, anyway, lard does not have a "meaty" taste. In something such as a pie crust, you would have to be told that it contains lard.
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Why is lard not allowed? What difference is it from having milk or butter on an abstinence day?
Good point. Milk or butter contain the fat of the cow, albeit in mutated form. Lard is just a clarified form of animal fat (and sows do give milk, though I've never had the pleasure).
Side point, in her final days, my mother recalled that she was given goat milk as a child when she was sick, and I asked her if she'd like to get me some goat milk for her to drink, as she was only able to take liquid and pureed nutrition --- when she rallied one night, she asked for beer and pizza, which I indulged, but aside from that, it was pretty much just pudding, mashed potatoes, coffee, and so on. The end came before I was able to track down some goat milk for her.
Requiescat in pace.
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My bad, I was wrong......
The law of abstinence forbids the eating of flesh meat and of broth made of meat, but does not exclude the use of eggs, milk and the products of milk (namely cheese and butter), and any seasonings of food, even those made from the fat of animals. (Canon 1250.)
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I think that it's like most things in Church law, where we go not by the chemical composition of something but rather by what it seems to be from normal common perception. Something used as a seasoning would likely not even be perceptible to the senses as meat or meat-like substance.
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My bad, I was wrong......
The law of abstinence forbids the eating of flesh meat and of broth made of meat, but does not exclude the use of eggs, milk and the products of milk (namely cheese and butter), and any seasonings of food, even those made from the fat of animals. (Canon 1250.)
The real question is gelatin which is found in many lollies.
Manufacturers produce gelatin by processing animal bones, cartilage, and skin. They may use the bodies of cows or fish, for example. The process extracts the collagen, a fibrous protein that connects muscles, bones, and skin, and turns it into gelatin, a flavorless, colorless, jelly-like substance.
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The real question is gelatin which is found in many lollies.
Manufacturers produce gelatin by processing animal bones, cartilage, and skin. They may use the bodies of cows or fish, for example. The process extracts the collagen, a fibrous protein that connects muscles, bones, and skin, and turns it into gelatin, a flavorless, colorless, jelly-like substance.
“The prohibition extends only to the flesh of mammals and birds, including the fat, blood, marrow, brains, heart, liver etc. Lawful foods are fish, frogs, turtles, snails, mussels, clams, oysters, crabs etc. ... Likewise lawful are margarine, and meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth, e.g. gelatine; likewise gelatine products of animal origin, but not soup cubes that contain meat ingredients.” -Jone, Moral Theology
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“The prohibition extends only to the flesh of mammals and birds, including the fat, blood, marrow, brains, heart, liver etc. Lawful foods are fish, frogs, turtles, snails, mussels, clams, oysters, crabs etc. ... Likewise lawful are margarine, and meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth, e.g. gelatine; likewise gelatine products of animal origin, but not soup cubes that contain meat ingredients.” -Jone, Moral Theology
That's what I was saying above (the bolded), that the Church goes off common perception rather than chemical composition, so "meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth" are permitted.
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Gelatin and other meat by-products are found in many prescription medication. Oops. The only way to avoid this is to have your prescriptions compounded and unfortunately most insurance companies won't pay for that.
What about bacon grease? It retains a slight smoky flavor.
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That's what I was saying above (the bolded), that the Church goes off common perception rather than chemical composition, so "meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth" are permitted.
This is what I was getting at. To me, lard has no meat taste whatsoever. Bacon grease does. I avoid bacon grease on Fridays, ditto things such as turnip greens that have some taste of meat from the seasoning in them.
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“The prohibition extends only to the flesh of mammals and birds, including the fat, blood, marrow, brains, heart, liver etc. Lawful foods are fish, frogs, turtles, snails, mussels, clams, oysters, crabs etc. ... Likewise lawful are margarine, and meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth, e.g. gelatine; likewise gelatine products of animal origin, but not soup cubes that contain meat ingredients.” -Jone, Moral Theology
Does that make lard, butter and cheeses not ok?
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“The prohibition extends only to the flesh of mammals and birds, including the fat, blood, marrow, brains, heart, liver etc. Lawful foods are fish, frogs, turtles, snails, mussels, clams, oysters, crabs etc. ... Likewise lawful are margarine, and meat extracts that have lost the taste of meat or broth, e.g. gelatine; likewise gelatine products of animal origin, but not soup cubes that contain meat ingredients.” -Jone, Moral Theology
This doesn't make sense to me. I thought soups (broth) made from meat are a no go, so what if the taste changes?
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This doesn't make sense to me. I thought soups (broth) made from meat are a no go, so what if the taste changes?
You aren’t reading this correctly, it’s “lost the taste of meat or broth” you bolded the word “broth” for no reason. Also, “NOT soup cubes”, so what you always thought was correct.
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Does that make lard, butter and cheeses not ok?
Butter and cheese might not be vegan, but their fat comes from milk -- not from the side of an animal.
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Does that make lard, butter and cheeses not ok?
Lard as a seasoning is fine. Eating lard in and of itself, such as pork cracklings, would not be.
Butter and cheeses are fine.
I think you may be a bit scrupulous about this.
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This doesn't make sense to me. I thought soups (broth) made from meat are a no go, so what if the taste changes?
Please re-read the quote from Jone. He specifically says meat broths are NOT allowed.
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Please re-read the quote from Jone. He specifically says meat broths are NOT allowed.
The way Jone phrases this is a bit clumsy and I can see the ambiguity. Keep in mind that the book was originally in German. In some places the English translation is a little weird. I don't have the original, and even if I did, I don't read German well enough, to be able to see fine distinctions in phrasing. Probably just as well.
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Not sure if this applied pre-Vatican II, but my understanding is that it must have the taste of meat, to fall under the prohibition. To me, anyway, lard does not have a "meaty" taste. In something such as a pie crust, you would have to be told that it contains lard.
This is what my priest said when I was asking about gelatin. Also a meat byproduct but doesn't have a meaty taste.
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Remember that abstinence is about obedience. Something not having the flavor of meat is more likely about situations where a Catholic couldn't easily determine the ingredients and thus wouldn't be committing a mortal sin if he bought something like plain frybread that could have been fried in anything. Otherwise, "not having the flavor of meat" becomes a huge subjective loophole.
Remember too the history of the changes in the Church's requirements. In northern Europe centuries ago before trade brought such imports, most people had no access to vegetable oils, and that's how butter and even lard became acceptable dispensations for certain locations. Also, not knowing what your lunch is fried in is a situation that arose due to urbanization and industrialization, when Catholic laborers away from home had to make do with whatever a non-Catholic (Protestant, apostate, etc.) food vendor was selling. Back to the basic premise of obedience, which assumes personal control over and knowledge of one's own actions.
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Are insects safe to eat on Friday?
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Lard as a seasoning is fine. Eating lard in and of itself, such as pork cracklings, would not be.
Butter and cheeses are fine.
I think you may be a bit scrupulous about this.
I mistakenly thought lard was also a milk product.
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Just so everyone is aware, lard is rendered pork fat. The rendered leaf fat (internal body fat that surrounds the organs) is the most neutral tasting of animal fats. Crisco is a poor imitation of leaf lard. Lard can be made from rendering the subcutaneous fat from the pig, but it is not as neutral tasting as leaf lard. It does not contain meat, as it would get removed by the rendering process.
I use lard on Fridays. I also make salo or lardo when I harvest my pigs which is cured back fat, eat raw. I would not eat this on Friday.
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Just so everyone is aware, lard is rendered pork fat. The rendered leaf fat (internal body fat that surrounds the organs) is the most neutral tasting of animal fats. Crisco is a poor imitation of leaf lard. Lard can be made from rendering the subcutaneous fat from the pig, but it is not as neutral tasting as leaf lard. It does not contain meat, as it would get removed by the rendering process.
I use lard on Fridays. I also make salo or lardo when I harvest my pigs which is cured back fat, eat raw. I would not eat this on Friday.
Sorry, I accidentally gave you a thumbs down. I will make that up in another post.
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Yes, insects may be eaten on Friday. So may reptiles, fish, amphibians, such as alligator, snake, eel, snails, turtles, grubs, mealworms, arachnids, and crustaceans. Caviar is acceptable as is the meat of the iguana and the sea cucuмber. I’m unsure of the duckbill platypus. Maybe those of from the Southern Hemisphere know the answer.
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Yes, insects may be eaten on Friday. So may reptiles, fish, amphibians, such as alligator, snake, eel, snails, turtles, grubs, mealworms, arachnids, and crustaceans. Caviar is acceptable as is the meat of the iguana and the sea cucuмber. I’m unsure of the duckbill platypus. Maybe those of from the Southern Hemisphere know the answer.
I had always assumed that if it was from the sea it was fine but if land or air (birds land to sleep) then it's not fine. Seeing snake here is interesting.
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The platypus is an egg-laying mammal. I wouldn’t eat one on any day.
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Sorry, I accidentally gave you a thumbs down. I will make that up in another post.
I made up for it above. :laugh1: Off topic, but in culinary terms, leaf lard is an object of wonder, as are renderings from duck and goose. Nothing better for savory pie crusts. Butter may be uniquely tasty, but it's hard to find any with low enough water content to easily prevent gumminess.
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Are insects safe to eat on Friday?
Insects are not flesh meat.
Very strange permissible foods are the aquatic mammals which the Church has classified as "fish" since these spend 50% or more of their time in water.
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Insects are not flesh meat.
Very strange permissible foods are the aquatic mammals which the Church has classified as "fish" since these spend 50% or more of their time in water.
You must be thinking of muskrat. That was in response to a local situation (Michigan) where it was food for poor people living near the shore. In isolated circuмstances, the Church will create a legal fiction of "fish" even though the animal in question is a mammal or amphibian. And whales and dolphins are mammals.
Dolphins are a weird animal. I saw one in Florida (at an aquarium) and it kind of creeped me out, almost like a human that looks like a fish. Their brains are huge.
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You must be thinking of muskrat. That was in response to a local situation (Michigan) where it was food for poor people living near the shore. In isolated circuмstances, the Church will create a legal fiction of "fish" even though the animal in question is a mammal or amphibian. And whales and dolphins are mammals.
Dolphins are a weird animal. I saw one in Florida (at an aquarium) and it kind of creeped me out, almost like a human that looks like a fish. Their brains are huge.
Also beavers and capybaras are permissible.