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Author Topic: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary  (Read 656 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
« on: June 12, 2021, 01:08:40 PM »
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  • One day I was with a Spanish group and they were doing the rosary and I heard them say the Hail Mary, with an addition at the beginning, they said "Dios te salve Maria"  which translates to "God save you Mary". I thought to myself,  what kind of an addition is that? The Blessed Mother was immaculately conceived and never sinned. I can speak Spanish, but I never bothered to learn or use the Spanish translation. 

    Here is an article in Spanish about what I bring up here:  DIOS TE SALVE (um.es)  What do Spanish speakers who pray this rosary have to say?

    ¿Quién sería el primero que tradujo con la peregrina fórmula “Dios te salve” las palabras iniciales latinas “Ave” y “Salve”, en las oraciones marianas Avemaría y Salve? Estoy seguro de que pretendía saludar a la Virgen, recordando el saludo del arcángel. Sin duda quiso decir “Dios te saluda, María”; pero le salió algo tan absurdo como “Dios te salve, María”. ¿Habráse oído mayor disparate que decirle “Dios te salve” a Santa María, Virgen y Madre? El texto evangélico (Luc 1, 28) dice: “Alégrate, llena de gracia...  María  pensaba cuál sería esa salutación”; pero, es claro que “Dios te salve” no es literalmente ningún  saludo, sino un deseo. Si al menos dijera “Dios te salva”, sería una afirmación certera. Con todo, lo que  pasma de verdad es que en cinco siglos nadie haya parado mientes en lo descabellado de tal versión.
    Si hay alguna persona a quien menos le cuadre la frase optativa “Dios te salve” es precisamente a María, la Madre de Dios, la primera salvada y plenamente llena de gracia divina. ¡Qué digo, cuadre! Deviene casi en  herejía, pues niega o pone en duda nada menos que el dogma de la Inmaculada Concepción, según el cual María fue concebida sin pecado original en el primer instante de su ser natural, es decir, preservada o liberada de todo indicio de mancha, mediante la redención preventiva de Cristo. Esa perífrasis “Dios te salve”, con intención salutatoria, viene paradójicamente a decir algo muy distinto, rayano casi en ofensa. Y, sin embargo, ahí  tenemos incrustada hasta los tuétanos del español católico esa frase “Dios te salve”, que queriendo ser un piropo,  resulta casi un insulto o  magno despropósito.

    Fórmulas de saludo antiguas y mσdernαs.- Los griegos usaban  dos verbos para el saludo: jaire (alégrate) y hygiaine (ten salud) que, desgastado su prístino significado directo (la salud es fuente de alegría), habían quedado reducidos a meras fórmulas repetitivas de saludo. Los romanos, a su vez, empleaban indistintamente dos verbos ave y salve, con valor de “salud, te saludo, sé salvo o sano, buenos días”. El ave se usaba ordinariamente  por la mañana, y el salve por la tarde. Cicerón usa la expresión: “jubeo te salvere” (me alegraré de que estés bien). Además, se utilizaba también el verbo vale (sé fuerte) como fórmula de despedida. Catulo (epitafio): “in perpetuum, frater, ave atque vale” (hermano, te saludo y despido para siempre).
    Al ser el jaire griego o el ave latino del texto evangélico  meras fórmulas de saludo, como tales han sido traducidas en las principales lenguas. La más explícita de todas es el francés: “Je vous salue, Marie, pleine de grace”. Pero, en inglés y alemán, no necesitan expresar el saludo con un verbo, sino que recurren a una interjección espontánea, como son hail y heil, respectivamente, equivalentes a hola. Estos dos vocablos hail y heil están relacionados con la salud, pues comparten la misma raíz  (heal ‘curar’, healthy ‘sano’). Tanto hola, como sus cognados hello, hallo, hail, heil o el francés holà, son afines a la interjección latina heus. Se trata de una  exclamación poligenética, ya que, según Corominas, es “de creación expresiva, común a varios idiomas europeos”.

    No creo que fuera S. Juan de Ávila, el Apóstol de Andalucía, el inventor de la traducción “Dios te salve”; pero, por ahora, es el más antiguo autor que la trae, en su: “Doctrina christiana que se canta” (Valencia 1554). Allí siempre aparece “Dios te salve, María”, y “Dios te salve, Reina y Madre”. Este texto de la Doctrina sería adoptado por los jesuitas, amigos de S. Juan de Ávila, que lo propagaron en sus dos oficiosos catecismos (Astete y Ripalda). Según esto, la desafortunada  expresión “Dios te salve”, debió de gestarse en las postrimerías del siglo XV o en las primerías del XVI.
    El P. Gaspar Astete, SJ. (1537-1601) publica su  Catecismo en 1599. Se popularizó en la mitad norte de España. A su vez, el P. Jerónimo Martínez de Ripalda SJ.  (1535-1618) edita su Catecismo en 1618, difundido por la mitad sur. Estos catecismos pasaron asimismo a Hispanoamérica, donde también arraigó el sintagma “Dios te salve”.
    Por su parte, en las lenguas hispánicas, el gallego y portugués conservan la forma más arrimada al latín. Gallego: “Ave Maria, chea de gracia”, y  “Salve, Raiña” .Portugués: “Ave Maria, cheia de graça”, y “Salve, Rainha”. En cambio, la frase “Deu vos salve, Maria”, en catalán y valenciano, patentiza la dependencia del castellano “Dios te salve”.
    Repárese que las versiones mσdernαs de la Biblia, todas suelen traducir “Alégrate, María”. Que el jaire griego era  simple expresión salutatoria, lo evidencia el saludo de Judas, antes del beso al Maestro (“jaire, Rabí”, de Mat 26, 49, traducido “ave” en lat. y “salve” en español), dado que sonaría a cruel sarcasmo decirle que se alegre, cuando lo va a entregar. Era  una fórmula estereotipada de saludo, al igual que nosotros cuando decimos “Buenos días”, aunque haga un tiempo de perros. Huelga, por lo mismo, la nota de la Biblia de Jerusalén, que supone una connotación especial de alegría en María por el mensaje de la Encarnación.  ¿Por qué la incoherencia de traducir el “jaire” por “alégrate” en  Lucas, y “salve” en  Mateo, siendo así que en los dos lugares se trata de una fórmula de saludo? Tan sólo la Iglesia evangélica traduce: “Hola, María”.

    Ya antes de que se introdujera la fórmula  “Dios te salve, María” o “Dios te salve, Reina y Madre”, el nombre de ambas oraciones era  el respectivo vocablo inicial latino Ave y Salve, y sigue siéndolo (así el confesor dice al penitente: “Rece tres Avemarías y una Salve”). Téngase en cuenta que el clero y los monjes rezaban en latín en la Edad Media y el pueblo lo imitaba. A finales del siglo XV es cuando comienzan a usarse esas oraciones en romance. La invocación “Ave María” parece ser anterior a la expresión “Dios te salve, María”. Berceo, clérigo, escribe: “Cuando Gabriel sabrosamente/ dixo: Ave María” (Milagros de Nuestra Señora).
    La primera traducción completa del Ave María y de la Salve se halla en la  obra:
    - Breve e muy provechosa doctrina y enseñanza que ha de saber y de poner en obra todo cristiano e cristiana. En la qual deven ser enseñados los moçuelos primero que en otra cosa. Ordenóla Fray Hernando de Talavera, primero arzobispo de Granada. Granada 1496: “Ave María, llena de gracia. El señor contigo. Bendicta tú en las mugeres. Y bendicta tu madre. Y bendito el fruto de tu vientre Iesu”, y “Salve, Reyna de misericordia. Dulçor de vida. Esperanza nuestra, Salve...”.

    ¿Tendrá la Conferencia Episcopal agallas para jubilar esa antigualla venerabilísima, adaptándola al lenguaje del siglo XXI? O bien podría reemplazarse por una expresión más corriente, al estilo de hola, o bien incluso podría sustituirse por las originales voces latinas, tan sonoras, Ave y Salve, como en italiano (“Ave, Maria, piena di grazia”) o en el sobredicho texto castellano de 1496. ¡Qué ocasión se perdió, a raíz del Concilio Vaticano II, para modernizar el lenguaje aquí, al igual que se hizo en el Padrenuestro!

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #1 on: June 12, 2021, 01:11:07 PM »
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  • Automatic Translation:

    DIOS TE SALVE (um.es)

    Who would be the first to translate with the pilgrim formula "God save you" the Latin initials "Ave" and "Salve", into the Marian prayers Avemaría and Salve? I am sure he intended to greet the Virgin,remembering the greeting of the archangel. He certainly meant "God greets you, Mary"; but something as absurd as "God save you, Mary" came out. Have you heard more nonsense than saying "God save you" to St. Mary, Virgin and Mother? The gospel text(Luc 1:28) says: "Rejoice, full of grace... Mary thought what that salutation would be"; but, it is clear that "God save you" is literally no greeting, but a desire. If I at least said "God saves you," it would be an accurate statement. Yet what really stuns is that in five centuries no one has stopped lying about the far-fetchedness of such a version.
    If there is anyone who least fits the optional phrase "God save you" it is precisely Mary, the Mother of God, the first saved and fully filled with divine grace. What do I say, square! It becomes almost heresy, because it denies or questions nothing less than the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, according to which Mary was conceived without original sin in the first instant of her natural being, that is, preserved or freed from all signs of stain, through the preventive redemption of Christ. That perífrasis "God save you", with salutaryintention, paradoxically comes to say something very different, bordering almost on offense. And yet, there we have embedded to the marrows of the Spanish Catholic that phrase "God save you", that wanting to be a piropo, is almost an insult or great nonsense.
     
    Ancient and modern greeting formulas.- The Greeks used two verbs for the greeting: jaire (rejoice) and hygiaine (have health) which, worn out their pristine direct meaning (health is a source of joy), had been reduced to mere repetitive formulas of greeting. The Romans, in turn, used indistinctly two verbs ave y salve, with the value of "health, I greet you, be safe or healthy, good morning". The bird was used ordinarily in the morning, and the salve in the afternoon. Cicero uses the expression: "jubeo te salvere" (I'll be glad you're okay). In addition, the verb vale (be strong) was also used as a farewell formula. Catullus (epitaph): "in perpetuum, frater, bird atque vale" (brother, I greet you and dismiss you forever).
    Being the Greek jaire or the Latin bird of the evangelical text mere greeting formulas, as such have been translated into the main languages. The most explicit of all is the French: "Je vous salue, Marie, pleine de grace". But, in English and German, they do not need to express the greeting with a verb, but resort to a spontaneous interjection, such as hail and heil,respectively, equivalent to hello. These two words hail and heil are related to health, as they share the same root (heal 'heal', healthy 'healthy'). Both hello, as its cognates hello,hallo, hail, heil or the French holà,are akin to the Latin interjection heus. It is a polygeneticexclamation, since, according to Corominas,it is "of expressive creation, common to several European languages".
     
    I don't think it was S. Juan de Ávila, the Apostle of Andalusia, the inventor of the translation "God save you"; but, for now, he is the oldest author who brings it, in his: "Doctrina christiana que se canta" (Valencia 1554). There always appears "God save you, Mary", and "God save you, Queen and Mother". This text of the Doctrine would be adopted by the Jesuits, friends of S. Juan de Ávila, who propagated it in their two unofficial catechisms(Astete and Ripalda). According to this, the unfortunate expression "God save you", must have been gestated in the late fifteenth century or in the first of the sixteenth.
    Fr. Gaspar Astete, SJ. (1537-1601) published his Catechism in 1599. It became popular in the northern half of Spain. In turn, Fr. Jerónimo Martínez de Ripalda SJ. (1535-1618) edits his Catechism in 1618, diffused by the southern half. These catechisms also passed to Latin America, where the phrase "Dios te salve" also took root.
    On the other hand, in the Hispanic languages, Galician and Portuguese retain the form closest to Latin. Galician: "Ave Maria, chea de gracia", and "Salve, Raiña". Portuguese: "Ave Maria, cheia de graça", and "Salve, Rainha". On the other hand, the phrase"Deu vos salve, Maria", in Catalan and Valencian, patent the dependence on the Castilian "Dios te salve".
    Please point out that modern versions of the Bibleall usually translate "Rejoice, Mary." That the Greek jaire was a simple salutaryexpression, evidenced by the greeting of Judas, before the kiss to the Master ("jaire, Rabbi", from Mat 26, 49, translated "bird" in lat. and "salve" in Spanish), since it would sound cruel sarcasm to tell him to rejoice, when he is going to deliver it. It was a stereotypical greeting formula, just like us when we say "Good morning," even if it's been a dog time. It strikes, for the same reason, the note of the Jerusalem Bible, which supposes a special connotation of joy in Mary for the message of the Incarnation. Why the incoherence of translating the "jaire" by "rejoice" in Luke, and "save" in Matthew, so that in both places it is a greeting formula? Only the evangelical Church translates, "Hello, Mary."
     
    Even before the formula "God save you, Mary" or "God save you, Queen and Mother" was introduced, the name of both prayers was the respective initial Latin word Ave y Salve, and remains so (so the confessor says to the penitent: "Pray three Hail Marys and one Salve"). Note that clergy and monks prayed in Latin in the Middle Ages and the people imitated it. At the end of the fifteenth century is when these sentences begin to be used in Romance. The invocation "Hail Mary" seems to predate the expression "God save you, Mary." Berceo, a cleric, writes: "When Gabriel tastyly/ said: Hail Mary" (Miracles of Our Lady).
    The first complete translation of the Hail Mary and the Salve is found in the work:
    - Brief and very useful doctrine and teaching that every Christian and Christian must know and put into work. In the qual deven be taught the moçuelos first than in anything else. It was ordained by Fray Hernando de Talavera, first archbishop of Granada. Granada 1496: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The lord with you. Drink you in the mugeres. And your mother blesses. And blessed is the fruit of your womb Iesu",and "Salve, Reyna of mercy. Dulçor of life. Our hope, Salve...".
     
    Will the Episcopal Conference have the guts to retire that venerable old church, adapting it to the language of the twenty-first century? Either it could be replaced by a more common expression, in the style of hola,or it could even be replaced by the original Latin voices, as sonorous, Ave and Salve,as in Italian ("Ave, Maria, piena di grazia")or in the aforementioned Castilian text of 1496. What an opportunity was missed, in the wake of the Second Vatican Council, to modernize the language here, just as it was done in the Lord's Prayer!
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #2 on: June 12, 2021, 01:26:35 PM »
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  • error
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #3 on: June 12, 2021, 02:39:26 PM »
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  • What is the correct Spanish translation?
    May God bless you and keep you

    Online Minnesota

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #4 on: June 12, 2021, 02:45:15 PM »
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  • What is the correct Spanish translation?
    Of the Hail Mary? Exactly what the thread title says.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #5 on: June 12, 2021, 06:32:23 PM »
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  • What is the correct Spanish translation?
    I took Spanish in Highschool and went with the Seton Homestudy School Spanish Professor and his family to a family reunion in FL to become more fluent in the language.  His daughter was one of my best friends.  Every day we prayed the rosary in Spanish.  There was no "God save you Mary" in it.  

    Granted, that was about 12 years ago but we said it SO MANY times that it iskind of imprinted upon my mind. Here is what I remember:

    Ave Maria.
    Llena eres de gracia:
    El Señor es contigo.
    Bendita tú entre todas las mujeres.
    Y bendito es el fruto de tu vientre:
    Jesús.
    Santa María, Madre de Dios,
    ruega por nosotros pecadores,
    ahora y en la hora de nuestra muerte.
    Amén.

    My translation:
    Hail Mary:
    Full you are of grace.
    The Lord is with you.
    Blessed are you above all the women.
    And blessed is He the fruit of your womb:
    Jesus.
    Holy Mary, Mother of God
    Pray for us sinners
    Now and in the hour of our death.
    Amen
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Online Minnesota

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #6 on: June 12, 2021, 06:49:17 PM »
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  • I took Spanish in Highschool and went with the Seton Homestudy School Spanish Professor and his family to a family reunion in FL to become more fluent in the language.  His daughter was one of my best friends.  Every day we prayed the rosary in Spanish.  There was no "God save you Mary" in it.  

    Granted, that was about 12 years ago but we said it SO MANY times that it iskind of imprinted upon my mind. Here is what I remember:

    Ave Maria.
    Llena eres de gracia:
    El Señor es contigo.
    Bendita tú entre todas las mujeres.
    Y bendito es el fruto de tu vientre:
    Jesús.
    Santa María, Madre de Dios,
    ruega por nosotros pecadores,
    ahora y en la hora de nuestra muerte.
    Amén.

    My translation:
    Hail Mary:
    Full you are of grace.
    The Lord is with you.
    Blessed are you above all the women.
    And blessed is He the fruit of your womb:
    Jesus.
    Holy Mary, Mother of God
    Pray for us sinners
    Now and in the hour of our death.
    Amen
    It could be a regional thing. There are a LOT of regional differences between Spanish dialects. Do you remember what country he was from?
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #7 on: June 12, 2021, 06:52:23 PM »
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  • It could be a regional thing. There are a LOT of regional differences between Spanish dialects. Do you remember what country he was from?
    They were originally from Cuba.  He made it out on a fishing boat and his wife was ransomed by family in Spain.  They met later in FL.

    He taught and explained the different dialects.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #8 on: June 12, 2021, 07:44:07 PM »
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  • So...  It seems that there is a tradition of using the "Dios te salve Maria" in some places.  But...  It does not mean "God save you Mary.".

    It translates "God salutes thee, Mary" or "God hails thee, Mary".

    I think that "Salve" can also mean salute or hail.

    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-spanish/hail

    https://www.ingles.com/traductor/hail
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #9 on: June 12, 2021, 07:47:12 PM »
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  • Ave Maria.
    Llena eres de gracia:
    El Señor es contigo.
    Bendita tú entre todas las mujeres.
    Y bendito es el fruto de tu vientre:
    Jesús.
    Santa María, Madre de Dios,
    ruega por nosotros pecadores,
    ahora y en la hora de nuestra muerte.
    Amén.
    I speak Spanish fluently just like the Cuban you mention. He must have been a traditionalist like me who knew better than to say it the way it is said by everyone. Google the first three lines of your prayer above and you'll find that it comes back as "Dios te salve Maria", which is the way it is said in Spanish everywhere. Hence the OP.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #10 on: June 12, 2021, 07:55:29 PM »
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  • I speak Spanish fluently just like the Cuban you mention. He must have been a traditionalist like me who knew better than to say it the way it is said by everyone. Google the first three lines of your prayer above and you'll find that it comes back as "Dios te salve Maria", which is the way it is said in Spanish everywhere. Hence the OP.
    Yes, he is more traditional.  When his family had the opportunity he would go to the Latin Mass and that was back when I was still a teenager and had to go to the novus ordo with my family.

    I never heard the other version in all my studies.  It must be a newer thing?  Maybe novus ordo?  Because it could cause confusion for Our Lady?  🤔
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #11 on: June 13, 2021, 01:39:39 AM »
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  • I never heard the other version in all my studies.  It must be a newer thing?  Maybe novus ordo?  
    Read the article translation posting #2, it has been the standard since the 1500's. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #12 on: June 13, 2021, 03:05:40 AM »
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  • Yes, that seems correct. We say, Salve, Regina, in the Hail, Holy Queen. But Salve here just refers to a Salutation, i.e. "Hail".
    So I think, in context, if indeed this translation is widely used, that must be the meaning. "God Hails Thee", or God Salutes Thee, Mary.
    Have you read the very detailed article? You have not responded in any way to the details in the article. All that you have given is your opinion: "that must be the meaning".  Basically, you are just saying, the writer must be wrong. Do you even speak Spanish?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #13 on: June 13, 2021, 05:12:54 AM »
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  • I took Spanish in Highschool and went with the Seton Homestudy School Spanish Professor and his family to a family reunion in FL to become more fluent in the language.  His daughter was one of my best friends.  Every day we prayed the rosary in Spanish.  There was no "God save you Mary" in it.  

    Granted, that was about 12 years ago but we said it SO MANY times that it iskind of imprinted upon my mind. Here is what I remember:

    Ave Maria.
    Llena eres de gracia:
    El Señor es contigo.
    Bendita tú entre todas las mujeres.
    Y bendito es el fruto de tu vientre:
    Jesús.
    Santa María, Madre de Dios,
    ruega por nosotros pecadores,
    ahora y en la hora de nuestra muerte.
    Amén.

    My translation:
    Hail Mary:
    Full you are of grace.
    The Lord is with you.
    Blessed are you above all the women.
    And blessed is He the fruit of your womb:
    Jesus.
    Holy Mary, Mother of God
    Pray for us sinners
    Now and in the hour of our death.
    Amen
    Thank you. ( I would like prayer cards on how to pray the rosary to hand out. I have to see if I have any old pamphlets.). 😁
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: God Save You Mary = the start of Spanish Hail Mary
    « Reply #14 on: June 13, 2021, 06:54:28 AM »
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  • They were originally from Cuba.  He made it out on a fishing boat and his wife was ransomed by family in Spain.  They met later in FL.

    He taught and explained the different dialects.
    *He taught...  For some reason cathinfo changed it to I taught.  🤔
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/