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Author Topic: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?  (Read 13134 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
« Reply #150 on: April 26, 2023, 06:44:37 PM »
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  • You presume much in your criticisms.  You presume +Tomas would work with them.  You presume +Tomas has time to travel and spend days confirming people, on a consistent yearly basis.  You presume Fr Arrizaga hasn't already asked +Tomas for help.  You presume +Tomas doesn't have travel restrictions or other impediments.  South America is majorly communist; almost every country is run by a marxist nutjob.  We here in the US take for granted "free movement" still exists (and is affordable).
    You, Pax Vobis, who stated "I have no idea who Fr Arrizaga is, I've never heard of him until this thread" are presuming that I suffer from the same ignorance. A bishop is required by Canon Law to provide Confirmation at least every five years.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #151 on: April 26, 2023, 07:07:38 PM »
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  • Had canon law been around when St Athanasius was alive, people would have told him to stay in his Arian diocese, "pray to God and wait for His help".  And Arianism would've conquered the Church.
    Only ignorant Arians would have said such a thing, just like the Modernists of our day did to Archbishop Lefebvre.
    True Catholics would have known, as St Athanasius did, that the Supreme Law of the Church is the Salvation of Souls.
    However, there is a bigger question under consideration here. It is the question of whether the priest has the power to confirm without the delegation. That is a question of validity, not just lawfulness. 
    Does the Supreme Law of the Church empower a lay person to consecrate a bishop and ordain a priest? Of course not.
    The question is by no means settled, but there have been serious arguments presented that the priest does not have the power to confirm, unless it is unlocked, by divine law, by at least episcopal delegation.
    Perhaps that power can be unlocked, by divine law, by necessity also. However, no good evidence has been provided to prove this.
    I think it is somewhat disingenuous for some on this forum to be dismissing all the theological and canonical arguments provided in this thread with terms such as "nonsense" and "utter garbage" with no evidence to the contrary.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #152 on: April 26, 2023, 07:16:54 PM »
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  • And it still presume that I don't know and never worked with Dom Thomas. And where did you get that I need to make peace with Dom Thomas? We were never enemies!
    I know Dom Tomas since i was a child!
    I presume nothing.
    You are advocating that the doubtful extraordinary minister of Confirmation, Fr Arrizaga, confirm your children when the certainly valid ordinary minister of Confirmation is in your backyard. How else could you say "I see that the sacrament is sentenced to death by internet scholars"?
    Either you are in opposition with your bishop, or you have no regard for the law of God and the Church.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #153 on: April 26, 2023, 07:31:54 PM »
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  • .
    Yes, the canonist is William Conway. The book is Problems in Canon Law and it was published in the mid-50s. It is a slim volume but a favorite of mine. Unlike the usual canon law commentaries which more or less all summarize the law, Fr. Conway's book is a compendium of actual letters he received from priests asking canonical questions about truly complicated matters. Here are the relevant questions and answers asked of him regrding Pius XII's indult:
    Very good, thanks Mith!

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #154 on: April 26, 2023, 07:49:00 PM »
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  • Here is the evidence, provided by Mithrandylan, against necessity empowering a priest to validly confirm:

    Q. After the death of the parish priest and until the next parish priest is appointed, may the curate in charge of the parish confirm dying children? May the bishop empower him to do so? --P.P.

    A. Now, the important point is that it is only the vicarious oeconomus appointed by the local Ordinary, who has the power of confirming-- the priest who has charge of the parish, in virtue of canon 472, pending the appointment of vicarious oeconomus has not the power. It may seem strange that it should be so, but there is little room for doubt on this point; the decree speaks only of the vicarious oeconomus and the Code makes it quite clear that the senior curate, who gets his power from canon 472 immediately the parish priest dies, is not a vicarious oeconomus. The commentators on the decree generally agree that unless and until the is appointed vicarious oeconomus he has not the power of confirming. Of course, it is very often the senior curate who is appointed vicarious oeconomus so that he will normally have charge of the parish for the complete interregnum, first from canon 472 and then in virtue of his appointment as vicarious oeconomus by the local Ordinary. But it is only after he has been appointed to this office that he has the power of confirming.

    Conway, William. D.D., D.C.L.. Problems in Canon Law: Classified Replies to Practical Questions.  1956. Brown and Nolan Ltd.: Dublin. Pp 152-54

    I concede that this is not infallible, and perhaps a different case may be made for necessity involving a large part of the Church, not of dying faithful, but living, in perilous times when the grace of the Sacrament is needed more than ever, not just for individual souls, but for the battle the Church must wage on Earth against the forces of antichrist. But I don't see how it could be considered anything more than a thesis. There would surely remain doubt, unless more evidence is forthcoming.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #155 on: April 26, 2023, 07:56:53 PM »
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  • I concede that this is *not infallible, and perhaps a different case may be made for necessity involving a large part of the Church, not of dying faithful, but living, in perilous times when the grace of the Sacrament is needed more than ever, not just for individual souls, but for the battle the Church must wage on Earth against the forces of antichrist. But I don't see how it could be considered anything more than a thesis. There would surely remain doubt, unless more evidence is forthcoming.
    *Not infallible, but not to be dismissed lightly, as in "nonsense", "utter garbage"...

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #156 on: April 26, 2023, 08:05:55 PM »
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  • I have counterbalanced this danger by mentioning that the priest in question is a "vagus" traditionalist, claiming a state of grave spiritual necessity supplies him with jurisdiction, thereby validating the sacrament.

    I hoped that constructing the emails (also wrote to two other archbishops in Italy and USA) in that fashion was make them give a more restritive rendering, since they will not want to concede validity or liceity to a traditionalist priest.

    We'll see.  Maybe they won't respond at all, or maybe they will respond with nonsense, or, maybe they'll actually provide decent argumentation.  Since the effort was next to nothing, it seemed wirth a shot.

    Can anyone think of a good trad canonist I could reach out to?

    Update: A-ha!  I just had a great idea...
    It would be interesting to know the opinion of Bishop Williamson and Fr Francois Pivert. Fr Pivert, who was a lawyer before entering the seminary, was on the St Charles Borromeo Commission which was set up by the SSPX to examine marriages. Dare we ask Fr Kramer?

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #157 on: April 26, 2023, 08:25:16 PM »
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  • From which bishop does Fr. Raphael get his oils?
    I second this question. Will the answer be forthcoming? 


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #158 on: April 26, 2023, 08:39:15 PM »
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  • Good point.  So how far does this go?  How far can the Trad bishops and priests go?  Because it sure does seem that the Trad bishops and priests do act as if they are the official hierarchy of the Holy Catholic Church.
    Good question, 2V. How far does the state of necessity allow one to go? I don't think any Trads deny the state of necessity in the Church. I think the answer is, as far as is required for the salvation of souls. However, one must have the power to do what he does. No layman can ordain a priest, for example. That is what is in question here.

    I'm not sure if you saw this material that I posted on the other thread that addresses this question directly:

    Dr Georg May, President of the Seminary of Canon Law at the University of Mainz, opines in a study entitled 'Legitimate Defence, Resistance, Necessity', drawn up in 1984: "The 1917 Code of Canon Law spoke of necessity in Canon 2205.2 and 3; the 1983 Code of Canon Law deals with it in Canon 1324.4 and 1324.1 and 5... it is clear from the context that necessity is a state where goods necessary for life are put in danger in such a way that to come out of this state the violation of certain laws is inevitable. The Code recognises necessity as a circuмstance which exempts from all penalties in case of violation of the law (1324.4)... no latae sententiae penalty can be incurred by anyone who has acted in this circuмstance (1324.3)... In the Church, as in civil society, it is conceivable that there arrive a state of necessity or emergency which cannot be surmounted by the observance of positive law. Such a situation exists in the Church when the endurance, order or activity of the Church are threatened or harmed in a considerable manner. This threat can bear principally on ecclesiastical teaching, the liturgy and discipline. A state of necessity justifies the law of necessity. The law of necessity in the Church is the sum total of juridical rules which apply in case of a menace to the perpetuity or activity of the Church... The law of necessity also includes the positive authorisation to take measures, launch initiatives, create organisms which are necessary so that the Church can continue its mission of preaching the divine truth and dispensing the grace of God. The law of necessity uniquely justifies the measures which are necessary for a restoration of functions in the Church... In a situation of necessity, the pastors of the Church can take extraordinary measures to protect or reestablish the activity of the Church. If an organ does not carry out its necessary or indispensable functions, the other organs have the duty and the right to use the power they have in the Church, so that the life of the Church is guaranteed, and its end attained. If the authorities of the Church refuse this, the responsibility of other members of the Church increases, but also their juridical competence."

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #159 on: April 26, 2023, 08:55:49 PM »
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  • If a priest confirms without permission, he's suspended.  But this canon doesn't deny he has the faculty (i.e. inherent power) to do so, nor does it say such are invalid.

    But a priest decides to confirm because 1,000s of catholics each year (or over a period of multiple years) can't get confirmation and the response is, "Oh my gracious!  This is such a SCANDAL.  Horrible, no good priest!"
    But this Canon does:

    Canon 782 (1917):
    ...

    #2.The extraordinary minister is a priest to whom the faculty has been granted...
    #3. ...Abbots or Prelates nullius and Apostolic Vicars and Prefects enjoy this faculty by law, although they cannot act validly except within the limits of their territory and for so long as they hold their posts.
    #4. Priests of the Latin rite who have this faculty in virtue of an indult confer Confirmation validly only on the faithful of their own rite...

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #160 on: April 26, 2023, 09:31:01 PM »
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  • I believe the 1983 code has a very liberalized approach to priestly confirmations. Those who accept its authority (I personally do not) can likely appeal to it with ease to validate priestly confirmations.
    Yes, I suspect that is true:

    The New Code on Confirmation: Code of Canon Law - Book IV - Function of the Church Liber (Cann. 879-958) (vatican.va)


    TITLE II.
    THE SACRAMENT OF CONFIRMATION (Cann. 879 - 896)
    Can. 879 The sacrament of confirmation strengthens the baptized and obliges them more firmly to be witnesses of Christ by word and deed and to spread and defend the faith. It imprints a character, enriches by the gift of the Holy Spirit the baptized continuing on the path of Christian initiation, and binds them more perfectly to the Church.
    CHAPTER I.
    THE CELEBRATION OF CONFIRMATION
    Can. 880 §1. The sacrament of confirmation is conferred by the anointing of chrism on the forehead, which is done by the imposition of the hand and through the words prescribed in the approved liturgical books.
    §2. The chrism to be used in the sacrament of confirmation must be consecrated by a bishop even if a presbyter administers the sacrament.
    Can. 881 It is desirable to celebrate the sacrament of confirmation in a church and during Mass; for a just and reasonable cause, however, it can be celebrated outside Mass and in any worthy place.
    CHAPTER II.
    THE MINISTER OF CONFIRMATION
    Can. 882 The ordinary minister of confirmation is a bishop; a presbyter provided with this faculty in virtue of universal law or the special grant of the competent authority also confers this sacrament validly.
    Can. 883 The following possess the faculty of administering confirmation by the law itself:
    1/ within the boundaries of their jurisdiction, those who are equivalent in law to a diocesan bishop;
    2/ as regards the person in question, the presbyter who by virtue of office or mandate of the diocesan bishop baptizes one who is no longer an infant or admits one already baptized into the full communion of the Catholic Church;
    3/ as regards those who are in danger of death, the pastor or indeed any presbyter.
    Can.  884 §1. The diocesan bishop is to administer confirmation personally or is to take care that another bishop administers it. If necessity requires it, he can grant the faculty to one or more specific presbyters, who are to administer this sacrament.
    §2. For a grave cause the bishop and even the presbyter endowed with the faculty of confirming in virtue of the law or the special grant of the competent authority can in single cases also associate presbyters with themselves to administer the sacrament.
    Can. 885 §1. The diocesan bishop is obliged to take care that the sacrament of confirmation is conferred on subjects who properly and reasonably seek it.
    §2. A presbyter who possesses this faculty must use it for the sake of those in whose favor the faculty was granted.
    Can. 886 §1. A bishop in his diocese legitimately administers the sacrament of confirmation even to faithful who are not his subjects, unless their own ordinary expressly prohibits it.
    §2. To administer confirmation licitly in another diocese, a bishop needs at least the reasonably presumed permission of the diocesan bishop unless it concerns his own subjects.
    Can. 887 A presbyter who possesses the faculty of administering confirmation also confers this sacrament licitly on externs in the territory assigned to him unless their proper ordinary prohibits it; he cannot confer it validly on anyone in another territory, without prejudice to the prescript of can. 883, n. 3.
    Can. 888 Within the territory in which they are able to confer confirmation, ministers can administer it even in exempt places.
    CHAPTER III.
    THOSE TO BE CONFIRMED
    Can. 889 §1. Every baptized person not yet confirmed and only such a person is capable of receiving confirmation.
    §2. To receive confirmation licitly outside the danger of death requires that a person who has the use of reason be suitably instructed, properly disposed, and able to renew the baptismal promises.
    Can. 890 The faithful are obliged to receive this sacrament at the proper time. Parents and pastors of souls, especially pastors of parishes, are to take care that the faithful are properly instructed to receive the sacrament and come to it at the appropriate time.
    Can. 891 The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age, or there is danger of death, or in the judgment of the minister a grave cause suggests otherwise.
    CHAPTER IV.
    SPONSORS
    Can. 892 Insofar as possible, there is to be a sponsor for the person to be confirmed; the sponsor is to take care that the confirmed person behaves as a true witness of Christ and faithfully fulfills the obligations inherent in this sacrament.
    Can. 893 §1. To perform the function of sponsor, a person must fulfill the conditions mentioned in can. 874.
    §2. It is desirable to choose as sponsor the one who undertook the same function in baptism.
    CHAPTER V.
    THE PROOF AND REGISTRATION OF THE CONFERRAL OF CONFIRMATION
    Can. 894 To prove the conferral of confirmation the prescripts of can. 876 are to be observed.
    Can. 895 The names of those confirmed with mention made of the minister, the parents and sponsors, and the place and date of the conferral of confirmation are to be recorded in the confirmation register of the diocesan curia or, where the conference of bishops or the diocesan bishop has prescribed it, in a register kept in the parish archive. The pastor must inform the pastor of the place of baptism about the conferral of confirmation so that a notation is made in the baptismal register according to the norm of can. 535, §2.
    Can. 896 If the pastor of the place was not present, the minister either personally or through another is to inform him as soon as possible of the conferral of confirmation.


    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #161 on: April 27, 2023, 07:42:00 AM »
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  • presumo nada.
    Você está defendendo que o duvidoso ministro extraordinário da Confirmação, Pe Arrizaga, confirme seus filhos quando o certamente válido ministro ordinário da Confirmação estiver em seu quintal. De que outra forma você poderia dizer "vejo que o sacramento é condenado à morte por estudiosos da internet"?
    Ou você está em oposição ao seu bispo ou não tem consideração pela lei de Deus e pela Igreja.

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #162 on: April 27, 2023, 07:44:06 AM »
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  • I asked Father Valerii (a Byzantine Catholic priest who is on good terms with Bishop Dolan's group) about my concerns about whether a Byzantine priest can validly confirm a person from the Latin Rite who is not under his jurisdiction.  He shared a lot of good information:

    https://twitter.com/FrValerii/status/1651564099229085699?t=F4wuL-QeRDGr6b-ZVbLFGw&s=19


    This is the basic information:

    "A COMMENTARY ON THE NEW CODE OF CANON LAW By THE REV. P. CHAS. AUGUSTINE Vol IV p 104:

    "whether Confirmation thus administered should be conditionally repeated, the answer was, non expedire, except in the case of those who are to be promoted to tonsure or sacred orders"

    The book is on the 1917 code of canon Law when it was new.

    https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Commentary_on_the_New_Code_of_Canon_La.html?id=pakmAQAAMAAJ#v=onepage&q=A%20COMMENTARY%20ON%20THE%20NEW%20CODE%20OF%20CANON%20LAW%20By%20THE%20REV.%20P.%20CHAS.%20AUGUSTINE%20Vol%20IV%20p%20104%3A%20%22whether%20Confirmation%20thus%20administered%20should%20be%20conditionally%20repeated%2C%20the%20answer%20was%2C%20non%20expedire%2C%20except%20in%20the%20case%20of%20those%20who%20are%20to%20be%20promoted%20to%20tonsure%20or%20sacred%20orders%22&f=false

    There is more but little boys call and I must go...

    The book has it all.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #163 on: April 27, 2023, 07:47:14 AM »
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  • Bernardo Bartmann
    Collection of Dogmatic Theology Volume III I don't have the page, because as I said earlier, my library is in another city

    Offline thomazbarbosa

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #164 on: April 27, 2023, 07:52:50 AM »
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  • I second this question. Will the answer be forthcoming?
    As usual, the holy oil is consecrated by the Bishop, in the case of Fr Raphael. (Bis)