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Author Topic: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?  (Read 13165 times)

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Offline Mithrandylan

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Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2023, 07:42:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 24, 2023, 05:03:25 AM
    Fr. Arrizaga says:

    “According to Canon Law 1917 (CIC 781-1, CIC 782-2), The Extraordinary Minister of Confirmation is every priest who is authorized by special indult coming from the Holy See, or also as a general right when it is for the salvation of souls (Salus animarum).“

    The latter, bolded portion of this quote is not included in the canons, and Fr. Arrizaga does not cite or support this assertion, which, in light of all the foregoing, seems to me to be critical to the defense of his argument.

    Can Fr. Arrizaga please support this claim?

    If not, it is to be dismissed.
    .
    In consulting the canons in question, no "general right for the salvation of souls" is mentioned. This part is Father's own assertion and interpretation. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #91 on: April 24, 2023, 08:01:27 AM »
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    • Quote
    You're quoting a theologian who agrees (with all the others) that priests confirm invalidly without papal approval due to a deficiency in order. He is offering his opinion on a debated issue, which is the exact reason priests cannot exercise this power without papal approval. 
    You originally said priests don't have necessary "power of orders", which is untrue.  Now you're agreeing with me that the issue is one of permission/discipline, which jives with the early Church history of priests originally confirming, then stepping aside out of respect, which then morphed into Church norms/laws.


    In other words, the reason priests can't confirm is purely due to Church rules, of which delegation is one of them.  This was my original argument.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #92 on: April 24, 2023, 08:02:53 AM »
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    • Quote
    or also as a general right when it is for the salvation of souls (Salus animarum).“

    The latter, bolded portion of this quote is not included in the canons,
    "The salvation of souls is the highest law" is the backbone principle of canon law.  You didn't learn this in seminary?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #93 on: April 24, 2023, 08:09:23 AM »
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    • Quote
    Conversely, in extraordinary priestly confirmation, it appears that the pope must increase/elevate, in specifica, the power of priestly order.

    If the pope doesn’t do this, no amount of need, or appeal to “lex prima salus animarum,” suffices:
    A papal indult exists for "danger of death".  Canon Law's very foundation has numerous exceptions for "danger of death".  The current times, the elites are actively trying to kill us, whether by jabs, ww3, poisons in the food, destruction of farms, etc.  So, yes, the "danger of death" is all around us.  Persecution is just around the corner.  People need to be confirmed to withstand the attack.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #94 on: April 24, 2023, 08:10:22 AM »
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    • Quote
    It would seem, therefore, that this is not of Divine Law, but ecclesiastical law. And it is indeed through the law that the Church, the Holy See, grants this indult, so why would this law not be subject to the highest law of the Church in this time of crisis?
    Exactly. 
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #95 on: April 24, 2023, 08:12:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 24, 2023, 08:01:27 AM
    You originally said priests don't have necessary "power of orders", which is untrue.  Now you're agreeing with me that the issue is one of permission/discipline, which jives with the early Church history of priests originally confirming, then stepping aside out of respect, which then morphed into Church norms/laws.


    In other words, the reason priests can't confirm is purely due to Church rules, of which delegation is one of them.  This was my original argument.
    .
    I originally said priests confirm invalidly unless they have papal approval, and the invalidity of the sacrament is owing to a defect of orders. And that remains my position. 
    .
    Theologians all agree that priestly confirmations are invalid due to a defect in orders (which defect is only supplied for/remedied by the pope). There is controversy, and even mystery, in explaining the exact nature of the defect. But even theologians who explain it differently (e.g. Hugon, quoted earlier in this thread, gives a different explanation than the one endorsed by Pohl/Preuss) land on the same conclusion: priests lack the requisite power of order to confirm, and can only have that lack made up for by the Pope's express approval. 
    .
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #96 on: April 24, 2023, 08:14:14 AM »
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    • Sean, i'm re-posting your post from the SSPX thread, because it applies to this topic 100%.


    Quote
    You don’t seem to understand that St. Thomas teaches that laws are for normal times, and we are not in normal times.  We are in a state of grave spiritual necessity, which dispenses from the law (St. Thomas again), and in which normal jurisdictional considerations do not apply, precisely because jurisdiction is made for souls, and not souls for jurisdiction.

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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #97 on: April 24, 2023, 08:16:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 24, 2023, 08:09:23 AM
    A papal indult exists for "danger of death".  Canon Law's very foundation has numerous exceptions for "danger of death".  The current times, the elites are actively trying to kill us, whether by jabs, ww3, poisons in the food, destruction of farms, etc.  So, yes, the "danger of death" is all around us.  Persecution is just around the corner.  People need to be confirmed to withstand the attack.
    .
    The indult expressly and explicitly indicates actual danger of death, not the broader danger of death used to justify confessional jurisdiction during wartimes or other crises. And to boot, the indult only applies to actual pastors who are confirming those under their direct jurisdiction. 
    .
    Pius XII's indult is a dead end for justifying the validity of priestly ordinations by traditional clergy. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #98 on: April 24, 2023, 08:16:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 24, 2023, 08:14:14 AM
    Sean, i'm re-posting your post from the SSPX thread, because it applies to this topic 100%.

    No it does not:

    That post pertains to jurisdiction; this to the power of order.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #99 on: April 24, 2023, 08:17:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 24, 2023, 08:14:14 AM
    Sean, i'm re-posting your post from the SSPX thread, because it applies to this topic 100%.
    .
    It doesn't apply because it deals with jurisdiction, which is much easier to supply for than orders. Priestly confirmation requires the pope to supply for orders, not jurisdiction. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #100 on: April 24, 2023, 08:35:07 AM »
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    • Do you guys even understand the quotes you post?  Let's post it again and highlight the words you're not understanding:


    Quote
    'Accordingly, the Supreme Pontiff does not add a new intrinsic power to the priestly character, but causes the priestly character to extend itself to some act which itself can be performed by a superior power; just as the ear, while listening through the telephone, does not receive a new species of power or act, but extends itself to the object which itself had to be presented and adapted with the help of the instrument.'
    What do you think the 2 highlighted phrases mean?  Hint: Priest's do not have a defect of order. 


    All of this is a matter of permission, jurisdiction, authority (i.e. human church law) and not of Divine/sacramental defects.  And Church history, which Fr Raphael quoted, proves such.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #101 on: April 24, 2023, 08:39:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on April 24, 2023, 08:17:38 AM
    .
    It doesn't apply because it deals with jurisdiction, which is much easier to supply for than orders. Priestly confirmation requires the pope to supply for orders, not jurisdiction.
    Is it not true to say that the Pope supplies this power through the law? This mysterious power, which is not well understood and is not universally agreed upon by theologians and canonists. But it is governed by law is it not? The law is for souls. If the law would harm souls, there are provisions in place for the interpretation of the law. And of course, there is the highest law, the salvation of souls, which admits of no exceptions. Is there a problem with my logic? The priest can confirm. All that is wanting is the fiat from the supreme legislator. This comes from the law does it not? 
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #102 on: April 24, 2023, 08:40:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 24, 2023, 08:35:07 AM
    Do you guys even understand the quotes you post?  Let's post it again and highlight the words you're not understanding:

    What do you think the 2 highlighted phrases mean?  Hint: Priest's do not have a defect of order. 


    All of this is a matter of permission, jurisdiction, authority (i.e. human church law) and not of Divine/sacramental defects.  And Church history, which Fr Raphael quoted, proves such.
    .
    The theologian you're quoting thinks priestly confirmations are invalid because without papal approval priests don't have (or given his explanation, don't have access to) the requisite power of order. It's kind of rich for you to take the exact opposite position and then accuse others of not understanding it. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #103 on: April 24, 2023, 08:46:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on April 22, 2023, 06:51:25 PM
    I myself am confirmed through the Byzantine Rite but never really questioned it's validity.  My family went to the Byzantine Liturgy for 2 years when I was 6-8 before going back to the novus ordo.  During that time I received my First Holy Communion, First Confession and Confirmation all from the Byzantine Rite priest.

    Recently I have met some traditional people who told me that Bishop Sanborn (I think?..don't quote me on that) and several other sede priests they correspond with say that conditional Confirmation is necessary when someone has been Confirmed through the Eastern Rite.  I brushed it off but this thread made me think of it again.

    Bishops definitely are the norm in the Latin Rite, but priests often bestow Confirmation in the Eastern Rite even from hundreds of years ago I believe?  If it wasn't for the fact that my confirmation was through the Eastern Rite I probably wouldn't even think about these questions.

    Hello. The reasoning is that, although priests in the Eastern Rites do have the power to confirm conceded to them by law, this pertains to Eastern countries. Bishop Sanborn told me that he never could find out if this same power was conceded to them when they were functioning elsewhere, so he prefers to re-administer them sub conditione. That is as far as I am aware. Please, feel free to PM me for the Bishop's contact details and I can put you in touch.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #104 on: April 24, 2023, 08:50:35 AM »
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    • Quote
    The theologian you're quoting thinks priestly confirmations are invalid because without papal approval priests don't have (or given his explanation, don't have access to) the requisite power of order.
    I'm aware of this.  I'm also aware that the 2 phrases "don't have" and "don't have access to" are COMPLETELY different.

    a.  "Dont have" = no ability to have on your own, with permission or without.  (defect or order)
    b.  "Dont have access to" = you have the ability, but you just need access.  (defect of permission)

    This is all a matter of permission, law, jurisdiction/delegation.  The priest HAS THE POWER to confirm, he just needs ACCESS/PERMISSION to use such a power.

    The very fact that a priest is called an "extraordinary minister" implies he can confirm in extraordinary cases.  A sub-deacon is not an 'extraordinary minister' for confirmation because he has 0% power to confirm.  No amount of papal approval, even if the pope personally blessed him, would give a sub-deacon the power to confirm.  But a priest has such a power, if 'extraordinary' cases arise.
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