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Author Topic: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?  (Read 22613 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2023, 03:39:22 PM »
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  • It's very simple.  Either the priest's Order include the power to confirm or they do not.  We know that they do because otherwise no amount of jurisdiction of delegation could supply for the lack of power.  So what's lacking, jurisdiction/delegation, comes extrinsic to the power of Orders, and all such intrinsic considerations can be supplied in cases of necessity.

    Exact same situation applies to Confessions.  Priest have the power of Orders to absolve from sins, but priest do not VALIDLY absolve unless they have jurisdiction (and are designated, i.e. receive their "faculties").

    But is the delegation a power or a faculty?

    That is to say, is it the activation of some latent power derived from priestly ordination, or, is it an administrative grant of authority?

    Meanwhile, a Resistance priest emails me saying such confirmations are probably invalid (but he gives no explanation why).

    Again, just troubleshooting all this; I've never given thought to the possibility of a priest confirming without any delegation, so now I'm wondering about the nature of the delegation in se.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #31 on: April 20, 2023, 04:07:57 PM »
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  • But is the delegation a power or a faculty?

    That is to say, is it the activation of some latent power derived from priestly ordination, or, is it an administrative grant of authority?

    Meanwhile, a Resistance priest emails me saying such confirmations are probably invalid (but he gives no explanation why).

    Again, just troubleshooting all this; I've never given thought to the possibility of a priest confirming without any delegation, so now I'm wondering about the nature of the delegation in se.
    Ask the priest what the value is of the delegation from a bishop who possesses no jurisdiction.

    I'm tempted to think that all of these grantings of permission are in reason of decorum moreso than of actual ius. 


    Offline bvmariae

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #32 on: April 20, 2023, 04:48:37 PM »
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  • One of the priests aligned with Fr. Hewko ...

    You assume much, woman. Get your facts strait before posting.

    Offline BigFLAVA

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #33 on: April 20, 2023, 04:53:34 PM »
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  • Can't eastern rite priests perform confirmations without a bishop 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #34 on: April 20, 2023, 06:04:50 PM »
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  • Can't eastern rite priests perform confirmations without a bishop

    Are you saying the Eastern Rite priests perform their confirmations without a delegation from their bishop?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline BigFLAVA

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #35 on: April 20, 2023, 06:12:51 PM »
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  • Are you saying the Eastern Rite priests perform their confirmations without a delegation from their bishop?
    No that's why I'm asking how do they do it

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #36 on: April 20, 2023, 06:20:19 PM »
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  • No that's why I'm asking how do they do it

    I don't know much about the Eastern rites, but there are a few members here (although they don't post much) who are Eastern rite; maybe they would know.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 6 Million Oreos

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #37 on: April 20, 2023, 07:06:45 PM »
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  • Are you saying the Eastern Rite priests perform their confirmations without a delegation from their bishop?
    Eastern rite priests confer confirmation, which they call "chrismation," immediately following the conferral of baptism. This is the normal course of events. There is no permission.

    One might esteem that the permission of the ordinary is implicit and universal. However, the great theologians lean in the direction of priests being able to administer confirmation ex iure divino. 

    That aside, I repeat my question from above: by what title do traditional bishops delegate the faculty for Latin rite priests to confirm? The fact is that they do and we all accept the validity of such acts. I'd wager that these confirmations are valid owing to the capacity inherent to the priestly character more than from the imaginary faculties possessed by our bishops.


    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #38 on: April 20, 2023, 07:13:54 PM »
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  • Precisely my question:

    Is the delegation essential to validity?

    It would seem so.
    I agree with you. I think it very, very much is.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #39 on: April 20, 2023, 07:22:50 PM »
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  • One thing I do know about the Eastern rites is that when a priest is incardinated, he receives an "antimensium" (i.e., a "Greek Corporal"), which is very different from the Latin Rite version (which is merely blessed):

    Aside from ornate pictures and colors (vs the plain white Latin rite variety), it is consecrated (not blessed) by the bishop, and contains the signature of his bishop, and is the priest's proof of having received jurisdiction from him to perform sacramental acts.

    I'm wondering whether, therefore, this is tantamount or equivalent to a tacit delegation to perform confirmations (and therefore, this authority, rather than anything emanating from the priestly character/orders, is what validates their confirmations)? 

    [Can an Eastern Rite priest without a legit antimensium validly confirm?]

    Conversely, if that much were true, then the lack of delegation in the Latin rite would be invalidating.

    Again, just thinking out loud here, not declaring a position.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #40 on: April 20, 2023, 07:24:42 PM »
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  • Nonsense.



    Is Prümmer's Moral Theology manual nonsense?

    Is Canon 782 nonsense?
    Or what about Hugon's De Sacramentis below? Is that nonsense?






    'Accordingly, the Supreme Pontiff does not add a new intrinsic power to the priestly character, but causes the priestly character to extend itself to some act which itself can be performed by a superior power; just as the ear, while listening through the telephone, does not receive a new species of power or act, but extends itself to the object which itself had to be presented and adapted with the help of the instrument.'

    Hugon also concludes that delegation IS necessary.

    I think this was pertinent to what we were discussing too, Sean.


    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #41 on: April 20, 2023, 07:26:08 PM »
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  • One thing I do know about the Eastern rites is that when a priest is incardinated, he receives an "antimensium" (i.e., a "Greek Corporal"), which is very different from the Latin Rite version:

    Aside from ornate pictures and colors, it is consecrated (not blessed) by the bishop, and contains the signature of his bishop, and is the priest's proof of having received jurisdiction from him to perform sacramental acts.

    I'm wondering whether, therefore, this is tantamount or equivalent to a tacit delegation to perform confirmations (and therefore, this authority, rather than anything emanating from the priestly character/orders, is what validates their confirmations)?

    Conversely, if that much were true, then the lack of delegation in the Latin rite would be invalidating.

    Again, just thinking out loud here, not declaring a position.


    From Prümmer's Moral Theology manual


    Hugon also says that they have a habitual, or permanent, concession

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #42 on: April 20, 2023, 07:31:22 PM »
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  • One thing I do know about the Eastern rites is that when a priest is incardinated, he receives an "antimensium" (i.e., a "Greek Corporal"), which is very different from the Latin Rite version (which is merely blessed):

    Aside from ornate pictures and colors (vs the plain white Latin rite variety), it is consecrated (not blessed) by the bishop, and contains the signature of his bishop, and is the priest's proof of having received jurisdiction from him to perform sacramental acts.

    I'm wondering whether, therefore, this is tantamount or equivalent to a tacit delegation to perform confirmations (and therefore, this authority, rather than anything emanating from the priestly character/orders, is what validates their confirmations)? 

    [Can an Eastern Rite priest without a legit antimensium validly confirm?]

    Conversely, if that much were true, then the lack of delegation in the Latin rite would be invalidating.

    Again, just thinking out loud here, not declaring a position.

    Based on the quote by Prummer just posted by frankielogue about Oriental priests having received a tacit delegation to confirm, it seems they do so validly not in virtue of their holy orders, but in virtue of the tacit delegation.

    At this point in the conversation, it seems the delegation is therefore essential to validity.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #43 on: April 20, 2023, 07:32:24 PM »
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  • Based on the quote by Prummer just posted by frankielogue about Oriental priests having received a tacit delegation to confirm, it seems they do so validly not in virtue of their holy orders, but in virtue of the tacit delegation.

    At this point in the cconversation, it seems the delegation is therefore essential to validity.
    I think that everything from Prümmer and Hugon definitively close the book on this conversation.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #44 on: April 20, 2023, 07:34:51 PM »
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  • I think that everything from Prümmer and Hugon definitively close the book on this conversation.

    Barring new arguments, I'm inclined to agree.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."