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Author Topic: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?  (Read 22615 times)

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Offline DustyActual

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Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2023, 10:55:22 AM »
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  • I think that's part of my point.  So, the only REASON we have for believing that Bishops are required are PRECISELY this practice of Traditional bishops globe-trotting to administer Confirmations.  But the theological/Canonical reasons cited by Father in his paper are compelling.

    Perhaps the only counter-argument would be that since Traditional Catholics DID have bishops, there wasn't sufficient need.  But I disagree with that.  Really, the Traditional Bishops don't have jurisdiction themselves, so in a sense they're not much different than the priests in that regard.  Do they somehow have some SUPER power of Order when they can validly confirm without jurisdiction but priests need it?  That doesn't work, since it's either in the power of the Order of Priest or it's not.  There's no super-plus power of Order for bishops to confirm.

    Now, some claim that in necessity even a priest can ordain another priest, but this is highly doubtful at best and disputed among theologians.  But no one disputes that a priest has the power of Order to administer Confirmation.
    So I believe that the Church has always taught that since bishops have the fullness of the priesthood, their power of confirming is automatically "unlocked", and they would only need jurisdiction to administer the sacrament licitly; On the other hand priests have that power of confirming but it is "locked" unless they have a special delegation to use it, such as in mission lands or if someone is in danger of death. I don't believe that priests have the power to ordain priests, I think that power is exclusively reserved to the bishops.
    Go to Jesus through Our Lady.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #16 on: April 20, 2023, 11:04:06 AM »
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  • Quote
    It didn't emerge only after 60 years into the Crisis.  Fr. Bitzer had been confirming people in the 1970s (or 1980s?) before there were numerous traditional bishops available to do so.  He did recommend that people be conditionally confirmed later if they had the chance to be confirmed by a traditional bishop later just in case.  But only conditionally, mind you, not absolutely.
    I think you mean Fr Wathen, who did confirm people because, at the time, he was a member of the OSJ, whose order allowed priests to confirm.  And, yes, he did so out of necessity and told everyone to get conditionally confirmed by a bishop, if possible.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #17 on: April 20, 2023, 11:14:12 AM »
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  • I think you mean Fr Wathen, who did confirm people because, at the time, he was a member of the OSJ, whose order allowed priests to confirm.  And, yes, he did so out of necessity and told everyone to get conditionally confirmed by a bishop, if possible.

    Is not the fact that he urged the recipients of his confirmations to be subsequently conditionally confirmed proof that he considered them doubtful (ie., you cannot receive a conditional sacrament unless there is positive doubt regarding the validity of the first)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #18 on: April 20, 2023, 11:42:05 AM »
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  • He told the laity to conditionally confirmed if THEY had doubts.  He was acknowledging that it was a unique scenario and being empathetic to the faithful, most of whom had grown up in the pre-V2 days and thus, the crisis in the Church was shocking to them, in the early days of the 70s and 80s.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #19 on: April 20, 2023, 11:46:19 AM »
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  • Is not the fact that he urged the recipients of his confirmations to be subsequently conditionally confirmed proof that he considered them doubtful (ie., you cannot receive a conditional sacrament unless there is positive doubt regarding the validity of the first)?

    Yes.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #20 on: April 20, 2023, 11:50:07 AM »
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  • So I believe that the Church has always taught that since bishops have the fullness of the priesthood, their power of confirming is automatically "unlocked", and they would only need jurisdiction to administer the sacrament licitly; On the other hand priests have that power of confirming but it is "locked" unless they have a special delegation to use it, such as in mission lands or if someone is in danger of death. I don't believe that priests have the power to ordain priests, I think that power is exclusively reserved to the bishops.

    That's just a metaphorical way of speaking about the fact that the power is there inherently in the Orders.  Question is what "unlocks" it.  It's not much different than with Confession.  Priests have the POWER to forgive sins but they can't do so validly without either jurisdiction or necessity.  I that only bishops can validly priests, and that there's no "locked" power there, and most theologians do also.

    According to the Patristic sources cited by Father (I think it was St. Jerome), priests withheld performing Confirmations more out of deference and respect to their bishop than for any reasons of invalidity or even jurisdicton.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #21 on: April 20, 2023, 11:53:22 AM »
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  • But perhaps Lefebvre never had priests confirm for pastoral reasons (ie., they would freak out that he was going too far, and/or question validity, etc)?

    Unless we can find the Archbishop elaborating upon it, it's just speculation.

    Can anyone find any fault with the argument Father made in his paper?  I can't.

    Either we're in a Crisis where priests can be justified in hearing Confessions without the ordinary jurisdiction and priests can also be justified in administering Confirmation or we're not.  To me the two go hand in hand.  Either we have a state of grave necessity or we don't.

    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #22 on: April 20, 2023, 01:19:37 PM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre started doing this by approving it on the 1 May 1980.

    Then Fr. Guérard des Lauriers OP included an article by Fr. Hervé Belmont against it here: https://liguesaintamedee.ch/doc/Cahiers_de_Cassiciacuм_6.pdf

    I agree with Fr. Belmont. The ordinary minister of the Sacrament of Confirmation is the Bishop, and that any Bishop can always administer this Sacrament validly. The extraordinary minister of Confirmation is the priest delegated by the Sovereign Pontiff. This delegation is necessary for the validity of the Sacrament. If a priest tried to confirm without delegation or outside the limits of his delegation, there would be no valid sacrament.

    The distinction with the sacrament of penance is that the priest is, by his priestly character, metaphysically ordained to give such an absolution. The jurisdiction does not give him the power to hear confessions, but rather it gives him a subject on which to exercise that power (see L'Église du Verbe Incarné by Journet). But a simple priest with no delegation does not have the power to confirm whatsoever (as confirmed by chap. 4 of Sess. 23 of the Council of Trent). The priest, in himself, has no power to confirm. So there is no foundation for any supplying of power here.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #23 on: April 20, 2023, 02:22:34 PM »
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  • This delegation is necessary for the validity of the Sacrament. If a priest tried to confirm without delegation or outside the limits of his delegation, there would be no valid sacrament.

    The distinction with the sacrament of penance is that the priest is, by his priestly character, metaphysically ordained to give such an absolution. The jurisdiction does not give him the power to hear confessions, but rather it gives him a subject on which to exercise that power (see L'Église du Verbe Incarné by Journet). But a simple priest with no delegation does not have the power to confirm whatsoever (as confirmed by chap. 4 of Sess. 23 of the Council of Trent). The priest, in himself, has no power to confirm. So there is no foundation for any supplying of power here.

    Precisely my question: 

    Is the delegation essential to validity?

    It would seem so.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #24 on: April 20, 2023, 02:29:15 PM »
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  • I agree with Fr. Belmont. The ordinary minister of the Sacrament of Confirmation is the Bishop, and that any Bishop can always administer this Sacrament validly. The extraordinary minister of Confirmation is the priest delegated by the Sovereign Pontiff. This delegation is necessary for the validity of the Sacrament. If a priest tried to confirm without delegation or outside the limits of his delegation, there would be no valid sacrament.

    Nonsense.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #25 on: April 20, 2023, 02:29:29 PM »
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  • Precisely my question:

    Is the delegation essential to validity?

    It would seem so.

    No.  What part of situation of necessity is not understood here?  It's also required to have jurisdiction for the validity of Confession.  So if you claim there's no state of necessity here, then you should prepare to make a good general confession to a priest who actually has jurisdiction.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #26 on: April 20, 2023, 02:42:10 PM »
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  • No.  What part of situation of necessity is not understood here?  It's also required to have jurisdiction for the validity of Confession.  So if you claim there's no state of necessity here, then you should prepare to make a good general confession to a priest who actually has jurisdiction.

    Necessity may supply a bishop with jurisdiction to confer a delegation, but how can the delegation be skipped altogether?

    That’s like saying necessity gives independent priests authority to elect a pope.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #27 on: April 20, 2023, 02:53:45 PM »
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  • Fair points. 

    Just trying to wrap my head around the new idea, and wondering why it’s only emerging 60 years into the crisis.

    I don’t recall Lefebvre ever endorsing the position that his priests could simply all perform their own confirmations, even though he was the only SSPX bishop for 18 years, and families all over the world were waiting years for him to come by.  Seems like he could have saved himself (and the faithful) a lot of trouble if there’s really no problem.
    It's not really just emerging, in the late 60s / 70s and some into the 80s, trad priests were called upon and did many confirmations, this is because back then, there literally were no bishops *at all* who would do them nor could they be counted on to do them the right way. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #28 on: April 20, 2023, 02:55:01 PM »
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  • It didn't emerge only after 60 years into the Crisis.  Fr. Bitzer had been confirming people in the 1970s (or 1980s?) before there were numerous traditional bishops available to do so.  He did recommend that people be conditionally confirmed later if they had the chance to be confirmed by a traditional bishop later just in case.  But only conditionally, mind you, not absolutely.
    I just saw this after posting, but yes, Fr. Bitzer was not alone, there were plenty of other priests did the same.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Raphael Arrizaga Begins Administering Confirmations?
    « Reply #29 on: April 20, 2023, 03:03:45 PM »
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  • Necessity may supply a bishop with jurisdiction to confer a delegation, but how can the delegation be skipped altogether?

    That’s like saying necessity gives independent priests authority to elect a pope.

    It's very simple.  Either the priest's Order include the power to confirm or they do not.  We know that they do because otherwise no amount of jurisdiction of delegation could supply for the lack of power.  So what's lacking, jurisdiction/delegation, comes extrinsic to the power of Orders, and all such intrinsic considerations can be supplied in cases of necessity.

    Exact same situation applies to Confessions.  Priest have the power of Orders to absolve from sins, but priest do not VALIDLY absolve unless they have jurisdiction (and are designated, i.e. receive their "faculties").