On bad thoughts: sermon on the eighteenth Sunday after Pentecost

By St Alphonsus de Liguori  

10. Above all, in order to avoid bad thoughts, men must abstain from looking at women, and females must be careful not to look at men. I repeat the words of Job which I have frequently quoted: “I made a covenant with my eyes, that I should not so much as think upon a virgin.” (Job 31:1.) He says that he made a covenant with his eyes that he would not think. What have the eyes to do with thinking? The eyes do not think; the mind alone thinks. But he had just reason to say that he made a covenant with his eyes that he would not think on women; for St Bernard says, that through the eyes the darts of impure love, which kills the soul, enter into the mind. Hence the Holy Ghost says: “Turn away thy face from a woman dressed up.” (Sir 9:8) It is always dangerous to look at young persons elegantly dressed; and to look at them purposely, and without a just cause, is, at least, a venial sin.

The Saint says both men and women should avoid looking at each other.


Even going so far for men that even looking at a dressed up young lady is at least a venial sin.

Would this include women you don't find attractive dressed up? Frankly in practice it is very difficult to avoid looking as at nice looking people, yet if it's a venial sin then custody of the eyes must be practised.

When should you look at someone? Obviously the first time you see them it can't be helped, but it means we shouldn't look a 2nd time without a just reason?

Anyone here have any practical advice or helpful information on this subject. It's also very difficult with secular women when you are out and about doing stuff.

He’s talking about looking at a woman in such a manner as her appearance steers your thoughts to lust. He doesn’t mean you have to not look at a little more than 50% of the population!  If you find a certain woman inspires you to lust, avoid her as much as is reasonable. Don’t focus your eyes on her without reason. We are to take custody of our MINDS, and the eyes and ears will follow. 
It doesn’t mean you can’t look at a woman in a purely platonic or professional manner. If you find you cannot control your thoughts when around a particular woman, then you must not be around her. If this is a problem for you to function morally and normally in mixed company, talk with a good priest. He may send you to a contemplative monastery or a hermit colony!  
The same goes for women who might not be able to keep their eyes off the men. Pray for self control and a pure mind. Keep away from men.
If you find this is how the enemy tempts you, by causing you to think in terms of sex whenever you see an attractive person, that’s not normal. You need help.
P.S. Women don’t like men who look them over, mentally undress them, and think of how it would be to “sleep” with them!  If you do this to an honorable woman, she’ll be repulsed by you, think you’re a dirty-minded, creepy, sex fiend!  She’ll warn all her girl friends and tell her father, brother, or husband about you. Then you’ll have opportunity to do penance from your hospital bed.  
A woman who stakes out and stalks guys is even worse, She’s cheap, tasteless, tawdry, a tease, and a slut. 
In short, both sexes must take command of their thoughts and keep their minds elevated to Heaven instead of the gutter.  

Yet that's not what he said but; "It is always dangerous to look at young persons elegantly dressed; and to look at them purposely, and without a just cause, is, at least, a venial sin."

The context of what St. Alphonsus is saying is lust.  Please don't cause scruples.  What Seraphina said makes sense.

Define elegantly dressed in St. Alphonus day?  What were women wearing in the country he was living in?   I looked it up and most dresses back then had low necklines.

On a side note: if a man doesn't look at a women's face while talking then probably the women will think he is weak.

All the WOMEN on this thread are saying "he didn't mean what he said".  Yes, he did.  He meant EXACTLY what he said.

Does it apply to all men?  Yes, generally speaking.  Everyone is tempted in different degrees, but ALL MEN are tempted by the eyes.  If his advice applies, then use it.  If it doesn't apply, then don't be scrupulous.

All the WOMEN should stay out of it, as you aren't a man and don't have the same temptations towards the opposite sex.

The orginal post included this statement.  So I don't think it is fair to yell (maybe I am exaggerating) at the women to stay out of it

I'm talking about what St Alphonsus said.  And every single female objected to it and said he didn't say what he said.  Wrong.

He said "men must abstain".  Do you know what "abstain" means?  Then he said women must "be careful" (which is a lessor command that abstain).  Why?  Because males and females are different.  All the men on here know what St Alphonsus is talking about, because we're men. 

Women don't understand men's temptations of the eyes, just like men don't understand the temptation of women and fashion.  

But the larger problem is that you women just completely ignore what St Alphonusus says and try to re-interpret it.  THAT'S THE PROBLEM.  

Notice that he adds "without just cause".  "Just cause" can be rather light, such as that you simply have to interace with them given some situation you're licitly in.  He also adds "elegantly" dressed, and I do suspect there may be a translation problem there, where he means more immodestly dressed, in general, or "attractively" (vs. "elegantly" in our modern sense of the term).  So it's OK to look at a woman who's undressed, or dressed in an un-elegant (though extremely immodest) way?  He also adds the qualifer "young people" ... to the exclusion of the elderly, and I suspect that he would also exclude obese (or ugly) people, though obesity was likely not common in his day.

So, putting together the various qualifiers, he says that it's venial sin to look at attractive women without just cause.  As with a lot of matters dealing with moral theology, the degree of attractiveness depends not only on who you're looking at but who's looking.  Some individuals might have a much higher threshold for what they find attractive than others, sometimes due to their degree of virtue.  I recall the story of some early Christian saint who was not paying attention and walked by mistake into a woman's bath-house and didn't even notice, since his mind was so absordbed with God that he barely noticed his surroundings.  Others, who are of a higher degree of virtue, find God so beautiful that women are ugly by comparison and don't interest them.  But even for such as these, there might be the entirely-involuntary pull of the flesh, due to one of the effects of Original Sin, concupiscence.

St. Alphonsus can therefore be summed up as saying that unnecessarily looking at women that YOU happen to find attractive would be a venial sin.  Put another way, if you look at a woman who's attractive to you for NO REASON WHATSOEVER, that would be a venial sin, since the only remaining reason would be precisely because you find her attractive and are indulging in said attractiveness.  But if you happen to catch sight of some, here or there, as you go about your legitimate daily business, or even, depending on the situation, are required to interract with some, those would be justifiable.  But if you just look at them for no reason whatsoever, or even without sufficient reason, as he puts it, that could be a venial sin.