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Author Topic: can a pope change pius v codification of the mass?  (Read 3620 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: can a pope change pius v codification of the mass?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2022, 10:38:57 PM »
:confused:  How can it be "somewhere in between"?  This makes no sense.

Absolutely it does.  Same thing is said of the canonization of saints.  It's not dogmatic per se in that it doesn't entail revealed propositions, and yet it has a dogmatic / doctrinal aspect to it.  cf. St Thomas.  Same thing can be said of Quo Primum, where it's on the border between being doctrinal and purely disciplinary.  There's a doctrinal aspect to Quo Primum.  It is not purely disciplinary but has a very strong doctrinal aspect to it.  It's not in the same category as, say, changing the duration of the Communion fast.  I view it as being in the same category as a canonization ... infallible and irreversible.  I don't think it would preclude a future pope from introducing a variation of the Rite, or a new Rite, but I don't think it can be abrogated.  When a Pope decrees something to be true "in perpetuity", his intent is clearly not "until the next pope comes along and overturns it".

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: can a pope change pius v codification of the mass?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2022, 10:42:31 PM »
:facepalm:  There's no "one rule" which can say (or not say) that the NOM is valid or invalid.  That's the problem (and devilish, purposeful cunning of it all).

Each and every novus ordo mass can be valid or invalid depending on 1) if the "priest" is a real priest, 2) if the "priest" uses the proper intention, and 3) if the "priest" uses a valid consecration formula.

What are you facepalming?  I said there's no smoking gun proof of invalidity, and there isn't.  In particular, we can't know the truth with certainty until the Church rules on the matter.  But then with your R&R position, you can claim certainty not only without the authority of the Church but even AGAINST the Church's authority, so given your theology about the Church, your reaction is not surprising.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: can a pope change pius v codification of the mass?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2022, 10:44:34 PM »
Marshall puts out "some" good things but we must be wary of liberalism.  And also wary of indultism, of which he is 100% a part of.

His indultism is enough for true Trads to steer clear.

Whole point here, in case you missed it, is that we're not talking about a Trad.  We're talking about someone who's slid into a full acceptance of Conciliarism and the NOM.  From that perspective, the approach of a Taylor Marshall might be more effective than something coming from a straight diehard Traditional Catholic (with the man in question here being very likely to reject it out of hand).

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: can a pope change pius v codification of the mass?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2022, 11:03:05 PM »

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Absolutely it does.  Same thing is said of the canonization of saints.
100% wrong.  The ruling by (at least) 2 different saint-popes that the roman rite is Apostolic (i.e. therefore, directly from Christ) is infallible.  Thus, the latin rite, as codified by Quo Primum, is infallibly declared as Divine and unchangeable. 



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It's not dogmatic per se in that it doesn't entail revealed propositions, and yet it has a dogmatic / doctrinal aspect to it.  cf. St Thomas.  Same thing can be said of Quo Primum, where it's on the border between being doctrinal and purely disciplinary. 
The Mass is of a Divine origin, as it is an act of Christ, both His sacrifice at Holy Thursday and sacrifice on Good Friday.


For you to compare it to a canonization, is ridiculous and totally off-base.  Apples-grapes comparison.


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There's a doctrinal aspect to Quo Primum.  It is not purely disciplinary but has a very strong doctrinal aspect to it.  It's not in the same category as, say, changing the duration of the Communion fast.  I view it as being in the same category as a canonization ... infallible and irreversible.  I don't think it would preclude a future pope from introducing a variation of the Rite, or a new Rite, but I don't think it can be abrogated.  When a Pope decrees something to be true "in perpetuity", his intent is clearly not "until the next pope comes along and overturns it".
You're missing the larger picture and you're quite wrong.  A future pope cannot introduce a "new" latin rite, because Pope St Gregory and Pope St Pius V have already said, infallibly, that the current latin rite IS FROM CHRIST.  No future pope can change what is Divine!  The matter is settled. 


If by "variation of the rite" you mean some non-essential changes, then fine.  But a non-essential change isn't really a change, is it?  No, it's not.  So, the principle stands - there is absolutely no way that the latin rite can be changed (in a essential way) ever, at all, now or in the future.  The matter is settled.  That's what TRADITION means.

p.s.  Quo Primum is not binding because St Pius V used the words "in perpetuity" but because he was ruling on a matter of Tradition and Apostolic origin.  He was reiterating that the Latin rite traces its roots to Christ.  That's why it's binding; because it's Divine.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: can a pope change pius v codification of the mass?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2022, 11:07:06 PM »
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What are you facepalming?  I said there's no smoking gun proof of invalidity, and there isn't.
On the contrary, there's no "smoking gun" of validity, either.  Therefore, canon law tells us (under pain of mortal sin) to avoid doubtfully valid masses.



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In particular, we can't know the truth with certainty until the Church rules on the matter.  But then with your R&R position, you can claim certainty not only without the authority of the Church but even AGAINST the Church's authority, so given your theology about the Church, your reaction is not surprising.
Your logic makes no sense.  You're the one who argues that all popes since John23 are anti-popes, therefore your argument should be that EVERY new mass is invalid, based on this alone.  If the V2 popes are anti-popes, then the new mass is certainly an anti-mass and invalid.  Every. single. one.


For you to argue otherwise is bipolar.