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Author Topic: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?  (Read 2262 times)

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Offline cassini

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Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
« on: June 10, 2025, 10:30:16 AM »
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  • I don’t know when and why the Latin phrase Sanctus Spiritus switched from being translated as “Holy Ghost” to “Holy Spirit.” I can understand the translation of “spirit.” You can see it in the word spiritus, and it is sensible to modern ears whereas “ghost” seems almost Gothic. “Spirit” also covers another meaning of spiritus which is “breath,” and it has that elusive quality of wind, water, cloud, and fire, which are symbolic of the Third Person. I wonder, though, if we have lost something in abandoning the word “ghost.”Those very reasons which make “spirit” an acceptable translation also make it a problematic one. For one, especially to modern minds, it has a connotation of emotion and feeling, almost whimsy. Is it a coincidence that the shift from “ghost” to “spirit” came at a time when our culture shifted our responses to situations from the head to the belly where the emotions hold sway?---Lucado, MaxBest

    A ghost, on the other hand, is definitely a person—someone who speaks to you, commands you. Ghosts are out of fashion now, but they were once part of our culture. I, for one, enjoy ghost stories of the old-fashioned kind. A ghost haunts, that is, inhabits a place, and the word “guest” is related to “ghost.” He annoys us, besets us, hounds us. His message may be consoling or convicting, but a person is telling you to do something and He won’t let you rest until it is done. Seek to evade him as we will, the Ghost is there. The Holy Ghost, as the guest of our soul, haunts us, as our conscience does—or should do if we haven’t deadened it with screens, entertainment, drugs, sex, and “news.” This is why we invoke the Holy Ghost when we examine our conscience.
    A guest can make us uncomfortable. We must ask Him in, make room for Him, and talk to Him. We have to be on our best behavior. It’s a difficult thing to do for a culture bent on distraction and wanting to do its own thing.
    A ghost in old stories came to right wrongs, to reveal hidden things that needed correction, to see justice done. He won’t “let sleeping dogs lie,” as we want to do with our sins that “didn’t hurt anyone” or that are so far in our past that they “don’t matter anymore.” A ghost wants the truth revealed and accounted for, no matter who knows or how far in the past—those secrets we hide even from ourselves; those things we would like to forget or overlook; those “skeletons in the closet” (another sobering image) that are the very things we need to confess.

    I was reared a Holy Ghoster and could never refer the Third person og the Trinity as a 'Spirit.'
    A ghost illuminates our minds to the truth of the present. Nothing is hidden from him; there are no secrets from him. Nothing is private. He sees all; knows all. He shows us the reality of a situation instead of the charade we often make it to be, as Banquo’s ghost did to Macbeth when he came to crash the dinner party.
    A ghost, because he is from beyond the grave, reminds us of death—a morbid thought, perhaps, but a salutary one. He knows what is beyond the grave, which is why ghosts often seem to pop up in graveyards. He shows us, as he did Scrooge, what could happen when we die should our course not be altered. It brings to mind those portraits of the saints sitting with skulls on their desks showing us the fleetingness of this life. This is something good for an age that is frightened of death and avoids the inevitability of it either by relentlessly pretending to be young or trying to have it on its own terms. A ghost reminds us that death is never on our terms, for our life was never our own to begin with.
    A ghost does not come, pace charismatics, amid fervent bouts of singing and Sister Act hand waving—but in silence. In those moments when we are alone, at the beginning or the end of the day. That soft whisper, that uneasy feeling that something, or someone, is there. He is numinous with that sense of awe you get during a thunderstorm, or when at the foot of the Rockies, or on the edge of the Grand Canyon, or when you stand on the beach and see the sun rise over the ocean. You are small. You are not in control. You don’t know everything.
    A ghost, like an angel, reminds you that there is another world out there—a world that is larger and more real than the one on your iPhone, at work, or in your head. You must reckon with it, for it is the Truth.
    If these reflections are too melancholy, remember that a ghost can also protect and bring comfort and security, as in the delightful story (and even more delightful movie) The Ghost and Mrs. Muir. Those little nudges we get—“don’t go there,” or “stay away from that person,” or “don’t click on that”—can be the Holy Ghost seeking to guard us. And ghosts don’t always reveal gloomy things, they often tell where hidden treasure is buried, as happens in The Ghost of Dibble Hollow. The Holy Ghost has many riches He wants to lead us to.
    In the new liturgical calendar, we mark the weeks after Pentecost as “ordinary time” instead of weeks after Pentecost. Can there be such a thing as “ordinary time” after the Third Person of the Trinity has come to dwell in our souls? Time itself is a sacred thing. Each moment is haunted with fear and trembling, delight and wonder. We cannot waste a moment.
    Our Lady is the spouse of the Third Person. A spouse, like a ghost, is a person. A spouse is the one you give your life to and are most intimate with. We imitate Our Lady when we give our lives to the Holy Ghost and become intimate with Him. Your spouse knows the truth about you—all your faults and foibles; your spouse inspires you and calls you to account. Feelings and emotions become subservient to the Truth because of love. When we are wedded to the Holy Ghost, He does the same.
    So, while the Holy Spirit is a good translation, it may also be well to call upon Him as the Holy Ghost and allow Him to haunt us, to bring to mind all we have done or failed to do. We can ask Him to come into our lives as a guest and stir us up and tell us what to do now. Let Him disclose his wealth, which He will do if we are silent and listen. And, before it is too late, permit Him to remind us of our death and the accounting we must make of this sacred time we call life.
    This article was originally published on Crisis Magazine.

    I was reared as a Holy Ghoster and have never been able to call the Third person of the Trinity a Spirit.

    Offline Drolo

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #1 on: June 10, 2025, 10:48:13 AM »
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  • "Ghost" sounds like Casper to me.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #2 on: June 10, 2025, 11:08:33 AM »
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  • I've always been Holy Ghost, but have nothing against Holy Spirit in tradition.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline HeidtXtreme

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #3 on: June 10, 2025, 11:31:45 AM »
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  • Holy Ghost is what was universally used before Vatican II, so I use that.

    Offline IndultCat

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #4 on: June 10, 2025, 12:30:02 PM »
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  • I grew up in the Novus Ordo with saying "Holy Spirit" until I learned about Traditional Catholicism and now I say "Holy Ghost." 


    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #5 on: June 10, 2025, 01:13:53 PM »
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  • I've always been Holy Ghost, but have nothing against Holy Spirit in tradition.
     
    One is Germanic, one is Latin, both at their core, mean the same thing.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed

    Offline jersey60

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #6 on: June 10, 2025, 01:18:46 PM »
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  • Going back to my intro days to Traditional Catholicism (SSPX) from the NO, I was told "we say the Holy Ghost here..." so I thought Holy Spirit was a NO thing. Being just a bit wiser now, not much but a bit, I understand both are used and neither is incorrect.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #7 on: June 10, 2025, 01:33:55 PM »
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  • Going back to my intro days to Traditional Catholicism (SSPX) from the NO, I was told "we say the Holy Ghost here..." so I thought Holy Spirit was a NO thing. Being just a bit wiser now, not much but a bit, I understand both are used and neither is incorrect.
    I don't remember much about the NO since I was a young child when the changes hit, but I do remember that the sudden replacement of the word "ghost" with the word "spirit" by the priest became the norm as part of all things NO. And while I agree that their is incorrect, it was (and still is) another "change for the sake of change" prevalent in the NO.    
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Marcellinus

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #8 on: June 10, 2025, 02:04:02 PM »
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  • This is only an issue in English, and of all the things to get bent out of shape over, this one is not one of them.

    I say Holy Ghost, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with Holy Spirit.  It means the exact same thing.

    I've heard people say "Well, 'spirit' can mean anything!  What spirit? Whose spirit?  Maybe even it means alcohol!  But, ghost can only be the Holy Ghost!"

    My response, "Oh, have you heard of Casper the friendly ghost, the ghost of Christmas past, etc?"

    Offline Drolo

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #9 on: June 10, 2025, 02:23:51 PM »
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  • "Ghost" sounds like Casper to me.
    There is also the word "phantom" to refer to that meaning.

    In Spanish is easier. Just use "fantasma" for this meaning, and the Third Person of the Holy Trinity is "Espíritu Santo".

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #10 on: June 10, 2025, 02:27:49 PM »
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  • Holy Ghost is what was universally used before Vatican II, so I use that.
    Exactly.  Holy Ghost is the general term used in English.  It's used for a reason.


    Quote
    I've always been Holy Ghost, but have nothing against Holy Spirit in tradition.
    The Church uses both, but Holy Spirit is used ONLY in specific circuмstances.  There is a past thread which explains why.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #11 on: June 10, 2025, 02:37:15 PM »
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  • In the English language, especially for Catholics, there is a difference between Holy Ghost and Holy
    Spirit.

    The Holy Ghost is the third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
    Holy Spirit can mean...any of the angels, the saints in heaven or the souls in purgatory.


    Take for example the confusion it would cause in the prayer the Angelus.

    "The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary and she conceived of the Holy Ghost."
    No Problem, she obviously conceived by the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
    H O W E V E R
    "The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary and she conceived of the Holy Spirit"
    Any non Catholic or marginal Catholic, reading that statement might very easily assume Mary conceived by the Angel, who just happens to be a Holy Spirit.

    In English, sometimes it's prudent to be specific.




    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Drolo

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #12 on: June 10, 2025, 02:41:41 PM »
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  • In the English language, especially for Catholics, there is a difference between Holy Ghost and Holy
    Spirit.

    The Holy Ghost is the third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
    Holy Spirit can mean...any of the angels, the saints in heaven or the souls in purgatory.


    Take for example the confusion it would cause in the prayer the Angelus.
     
    "The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary and she conceived of the Holy Ghost."
    No Problem, she obviously conceived by the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
    H O W E V E R
    "The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary and she conceived of the Holy Spirit"
    Any non Catholic or marginal Catholic, reading that statement might very easily assume Mary conceived by the Angel, who just happens to be a Holy Spirit.
     
    In English, sometimes it's prudent to be specific.
     
    Interesting. Thank you!

    Do you have any traditional source that I can check?

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #13 on: June 10, 2025, 03:26:17 PM »
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  • How about the Memorarie prayer of St Bernard.  Instead of "before thee I stand",, "before thee I kneel.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #14 on: June 10, 2025, 03:43:18 PM »
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  • Interesting. Thank you!

    Do you have any traditional source that I can check?
    No, not all tradition is written down and much is common sense.
    Pre Vat II there was no problem in the English language...we said what we meant and we meant what we said.
    Holy Ghost is His name.
    Holy Spirit is His being.
    Our name is our name
    Human is our being.

    This might help.
    If you were calling a child you'd say, "Suzie come here" you wouldn't say "Human come here"

    Reading through old prayer books that have not been updated things were pretty straight forward.  Since modernism began creeping into the practice of our religion little things have been added/changed to everything less specific so it becomes much easier to go along to get along.


    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]