Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: cassini on June 10, 2025, 10:30:16 AM
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I don’t know when and why the Latin phrase Sanctus Spiritus switched from being translated as “Holy Ghost” to “Holy Spirit.” I can understand the translation of “spirit.” You can see it in the word spiritus, and it is sensible to modern ears whereas “ghost” seems almost Gothic. “Spirit” also covers another meaning of spiritus which is “breath,” and it has that elusive quality of wind, water, cloud, and fire, which are symbolic of the Third Person. I wonder, though, if we have lost something in abandoning the word “ghost.”Those very reasons which make “spirit” an acceptable translation also make it a problematic one. For one, especially to modern minds, it has a connotation of emotion and feeling, almost whimsy. Is it a coincidence that the shift from “ghost” to “spirit” came at a time when our culture shifted our responses to situations from the head to the belly where the emotions hold sway?---Lucado, MaxBest
A ghost, on the other hand, is definitely a person—someone who speaks to you, commands you. Ghosts are out of fashion now, but they were once part of our culture. I, for one, enjoy ghost stories of the old-fashioned kind. A ghost haunts, that is, inhabits a place, and the word “guest” is related to “ghost.” He annoys us, besets us, hounds us. His message may be consoling or convicting, but a person is telling you to do something and He won’t let you rest until it is done. Seek to evade him as we will, the Ghost is there. The Holy Ghost, as the guest of our soul, haunts us, as our conscience does—or should do if we haven’t deadened it with screens, entertainment, drugs, sex, and “news.” This is why we invoke the Holy Ghost when we examine our conscience.
A guest can make us uncomfortable. We must ask Him in, make room for Him, and talk to Him. We have to be on our best behavior. It’s a difficult thing to do for a culture bent on distraction and wanting to do its own thing.
A ghost in old stories came to right wrongs, to reveal hidden things that needed correction, to see justice done. He won’t “let sleeping dogs lie,” as we want to do with our sins that “didn’t hurt anyone” or that are so far in our past that they “don’t matter anymore.” A ghost wants the truth revealed and accounted for, no matter who knows or how far in the past—those secrets we hide even from ourselves; those things we would like to forget or overlook; those “skeletons in the closet” (another sobering image) that are the very things we need to confess.
I was reared a Holy Ghoster and could never refer the Third person og the Trinity as a 'Spirit.'
A ghost illuminates our minds to the truth of the present. Nothing is hidden from him; there are no secrets from him. Nothing is private. He sees all; knows all. He shows us the reality of a situation instead of the charade we often make it to be, as Banquo’s ghost did to Macbeth when he came to crash the dinner party.
A ghost, because he is from beyond the grave, reminds us of death—a morbid thought, perhaps, but a salutary one. He knows what is beyond the grave, which is why ghosts often seem to pop up in graveyards. He shows us, as he did Scrooge, what could happen when we die should our course not be altered. It brings to mind those portraits of the saints sitting with skulls on their desks showing us the fleetingness of this life. This is something good for an age that is frightened of death and avoids the inevitability of it either by relentlessly pretending to be young or trying to have it on its own terms. A ghost reminds us that death is never on our terms, for our life was never our own to begin with.
A ghost does not come, pace charismatics, amid fervent bouts of singing and Sister Act hand waving—but in silence. In those moments when we are alone, at the beginning or the end of the day. That soft whisper, that uneasy feeling that something, or someone, is there. He is numinous with that sense of awe you get during a thunderstorm, or when at the foot of the Rockies, or on the edge of the Grand Canyon, or when you stand on the beach and see the sun rise over the ocean. You are small. You are not in control. You don’t know everything.
A ghost, like an angel, reminds you that there is another world out there—a world that is larger and more real than the one on your iPhone, at work, or in your head. You must reckon with it, for it is the Truth.
If these reflections are too melancholy, remember that a ghost can also protect and bring comfort and security, as in the delightful story (and even more delightful movie) The Ghost and Mrs. Muir. Those little nudges we get—“don’t go there,” or “stay away from that person,” or “don’t click on that”—can be the Holy Ghost seeking to guard us. And ghosts don’t always reveal gloomy things, they often tell where hidden treasure is buried, as happens in The Ghost of Dibble Hollow. The Holy Ghost has many riches He wants to lead us to.
In the new liturgical calendar, we mark the weeks after Pentecost as “ordinary time” instead of weeks after Pentecost. Can there be such a thing as “ordinary time” after the Third Person of the Trinity has come to dwell in our souls? Time itself is a sacred thing. Each moment is haunted with fear and trembling, delight and wonder. We cannot waste a moment.
Our Lady is the spouse of the Third Person. A spouse, like a ghost, is a person. A spouse is the one you give your life to and are most intimate with. We imitate Our Lady when we give our lives to the Holy Ghost and become intimate with Him. Your spouse knows the truth about you—all your faults and foibles; your spouse inspires you and calls you to account. Feelings and emotions become subservient to the Truth because of love. When we are wedded to the Holy Ghost, He does the same.
So, while the Holy Spirit is a good translation, it may also be well to call upon Him as the Holy Ghost and allow Him to haunt us, to bring to mind all we have done or failed to do. We can ask Him to come into our lives as a guest and stir us up and tell us what to do now. Let Him disclose his wealth, which He will do if we are silent and listen. And, before it is too late, permit Him to remind us of our death and the accounting we must make of this sacred time we call life.
This article was originally published on Crisis Magazine.
I was reared as a Holy Ghoster and have never been able to call the Third person of the Trinity a Spirit.
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"Ghost" sounds like Casper to me.
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I've always been Holy Ghost, but have nothing against Holy Spirit in tradition.
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Holy Ghost is what was universally used before Vatican II, so I use that.
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I grew up in the Novus Ordo with saying "Holy Spirit" until I learned about Traditional Catholicism and now I say "Holy Ghost."
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I've always been Holy Ghost, but have nothing against Holy Spirit in tradition.
One is Germanic, one is Latin, both at their core, mean the same thing.
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Going back to my intro days to Traditional Catholicism (SSPX) from the NO, I was told "we say the Holy Ghost here..." so I thought Holy Spirit was a NO thing. Being just a bit wiser now, not much but a bit, I understand both are used and neither is incorrect.
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Going back to my intro days to Traditional Catholicism (SSPX) from the NO, I was told "we say the Holy Ghost here..." so I thought Holy Spirit was a NO thing. Being just a bit wiser now, not much but a bit, I understand both are used and neither is incorrect.
I don't remember much about the NO since I was a young child when the changes hit, but I do remember that the sudden replacement of the word "ghost" with the word "spirit" by the priest became the norm as part of all things NO. And while I agree that their is incorrect, it was (and still is) another "change for the sake of change" prevalent in the NO.
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This is only an issue in English, and of all the things to get bent out of shape over, this one is not one of them.
I say Holy Ghost, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with Holy Spirit. It means the exact same thing.
I've heard people say "Well, 'spirit' can mean anything! What spirit? Whose spirit? Maybe even it means alcohol! But, ghost can only be the Holy Ghost!"
My response, "Oh, have you heard of Casper the friendly ghost, the ghost of Christmas past, etc?"
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"Ghost" sounds like Casper to me.
There is also the word "phantom" to refer to that meaning.
In Spanish is easier. Just use "fantasma" for this meaning, and the Third Person of the Holy Trinity is "Espíritu Santo".
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Holy Ghost is what was universally used before Vatican II, so I use that.
Exactly. Holy Ghost is the general term used in English. It's used for a reason.
I've always been Holy Ghost, but have nothing against Holy Spirit in tradition.
The Church uses both, but Holy Spirit is used ONLY in specific circuмstances. There is a past thread which explains why.
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In the English language, especially for Catholics, there is a difference between Holy Ghost and Holy
Spirit.
The Holy Ghost is the third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Holy Spirit can mean...any of the angels, the saints in heaven or the souls in purgatory.
Take for example the confusion it would cause in the prayer the Angelus.
"The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary and she conceived of the Holy Ghost."
No Problem, she obviously conceived by the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
H O W E V E R
"The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary and she conceived of the Holy Spirit"
Any non Catholic or marginal Catholic, reading that statement might very easily assume Mary conceived by the Angel, who just happens to be a Holy Spirit.
In English, sometimes it's prudent to be specific.
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In the English language, especially for Catholics, there is a difference between Holy Ghost and Holy
Spirit.
The Holy Ghost is the third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Holy Spirit can mean...any of the angels, the saints in heaven or the souls in purgatory.
Take for example the confusion it would cause in the prayer the Angelus.
"The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary and she conceived of the Holy Ghost."
No Problem, she obviously conceived by the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
H O W E V E R
"The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary and she conceived of the Holy Spirit"
Any non Catholic or marginal Catholic, reading that statement might very easily assume Mary conceived by the Angel, who just happens to be a Holy Spirit.
In English, sometimes it's prudent to be specific.
Interesting. Thank you!
Do you have any traditional source that I can check?
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How about the Memorarie prayer of St Bernard. Instead of "before thee I stand",, "before thee I kneel.
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Interesting. Thank you!
Do you have any traditional source that I can check?
No, not all tradition is written down and much is common sense.
Pre Vat II there was no problem in the English language...we said what we meant and we meant what we said.
Holy Ghost is His name.
Holy Spirit is His being.
Our name is our name
Human is our being.
This might help.
If you were calling a child you'd say, "Suzie come here" you wouldn't say "Human come here"
Reading through old prayer books that have not been updated things were pretty straight forward. Since modernism began creeping into the practice of our religion little things have been added/changed to everything less specific so it becomes much easier to go along to get along.
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Holy Ghost is what was universally used before Vatican II, so I use that.
Not so. The Eastern Churches used Holy Spirit every bit as much as Holy Ghost in the years prior to Vatican II when writing and speaking in English. Holy Ghost has its roots in early modern English style (Book of Common Prayer, Great Bible, Shakespeare) whilst Holy Spirit is closer to the native Eastern European and Near East anguages spoken by Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
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How about the Memorarie prayer of St Bernard. Instead of "before thee I stand",, "before thee I kneel.
In the original it was "stand" but they changed the whole prayer. Maybe this is a good example of what Pius X meant when referring to modernism.
Here's the original prayer from the 1858 Raccolta (Enchiridium Indulgentiarum)
"Remember, Mary, tenderest-hearted Virgin, how from of old the ear hath never heard that he who ran to thee for refuge, implored thy help, and sought thy prayers, was forsaken of God, Virgin of virgins, Mother, emboldened by this confidence I fly to thee, to thee I come, and in thy presence I a weeping sinner stand. Mother of the Word Incarnate, O cast not away my prayer; but in thy pity hear and answer. Amen.
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Not so. The Eastern Churches used Holy Spirit every bit as much as Holy Ghost in the years prior to Vatican II when writing and speaking in English. Holy Ghost has its roots in early modern English style (Book of Common Prayer, Great Bible, Shakespeare) whilst Holy Spirit is closer to the native Eastern European and Near East anguages spoken by Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
So in the Latin church, which is mainly in the West, ‘Holy Ghost’ was the norm. V2 mainly affected the West. Everything you wrote is an exception, as the Eastern Catholics are a small part of the Latin Church.
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So in the Latin church, which is mainly in the West, ‘Holy Ghost’ was the norm. V2 mainly affected the West. Everything you wrote is an exception, as the Eastern Catholics are a small part of the Latin Church.
Eastern Catholics are NOT part of the Latin Church. They are their own Churches (23 of them, using half a dozen distinct liturgical rites) that are their own autonomous ecclesiastical structures separate from but in communion with the Latin Church.
But do you understand that we have in English inherited "Holy Ghost" from essentially Reformation-inspired literary sources?
I say and write "Holy Ghost" probably 99% of the time. Aesthetically, I cringe at the sound of "Holy Spirit" in English.
However, I know that "Holy Spirit" is of IDENTICAL meaning to "Holy Ghost". Its use predates the Novus Bogus. And this whole debate is a nonsensical argument by poorly-educated, insular trads who love to play "tradier-than-thou". And the very humourous thing is that in North America, one encounters "Holy Ghost" in conversation and prayer mostly amongst fundamentalist (not evangelical or pentecostal) Protestants as well as Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians. And we trad Catholics.
Trads need to stop being intellectual emarrassments! In undermines are struggle for the Faith and against the Modernists.
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As I learned about tradition, it seemed to me that "Holy Ghost" was replaced by "Holy Spirit" after VII so I started saying "Holy Ghost". I noticed many books reprinted changed from one to the other. It made me wonder about why publishers would have gone through all the trouble to replace all mentions of "Holy Ghost".
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As I learned about tradition, it seemed to me that "Holy Ghost" was replaced by "Holy Spirit" after VII so I started saying "Holy Ghost". I noticed many books reprinted changed from one to the other. It made me wonder about why publishers would have gone through all the trouble to replace all mentions of "Holy Ghost".
It is really a non-issue apart from "Holy Spirit" being less melodious to the Anglophone's ear than "Holy Ghost".
Yet ... De gustibus non est disputandum.
For consistency, one should use perhaps "Holy Ghost" (Anglo-Saxon) or use "Saint Spirit" (Norman French) for the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
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Eastern Catholics are NOT part of the Latin Church.
:facepalm: You're the one who brought up the eastern catholics, in rebuttal to the pre-V2 comment. Obviously, eastern catholics weren't affected by V2, so why you brought them up, is irrelevant. I brought them up because "Holy Ghost" as you say, is typical of english-speaking countries, of which, even eastern-catholic countries speak, but due to their non-latin-church religious culture, don't use "Holy Ghost". As I said, they are the exception to the rule. The vast majority of the WESTERN english-speaking catholics, use "Holy Ghost".
But do you understand that we have in English inherited "Holy Ghost" from essentially Reformation-inspired literary sources?
So what? The point being that "Holy Ghost" has been used AT LEAST 500+ years and is the "norm".
However, I know that "Holy Spirit" is of IDENTICAL meaning to "Holy Ghost".
It is and it isn't. There's a reason that "Holy Ghost" started being used, and this thread has many examples. Your view is missing the forest for the trees.
And this whole debate is a nonsensical argument
No it's not.
by poorly-educated, insular trads who love to play "tradier-than-thou". And the very humourous thing is that in North America, one encounters "Holy Ghost" in conversation and prayer mostly amongst fundamentalist (not evangelical or pentecostal) Protestants as well as Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians. And we trad Catholics.
Many, many, MANY church prayers (written in ENGLISH) use the phrase "Holy Ghost". If you think it doesn't matter, take it up with the Church.
Trads need to stop being intellectual emarrassments! In undermines are struggle for the Faith and against the Modernists.
:facepalm: 500 years of using "Holy Ghost", and the Modernists get rid of it, and you're saying Trads are the embarrassment? ? ? What are you smoking, man?
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What are you smoking, man?
I sincerely wish that the ability to block persons were to exist on CathInfo.
You, Pax, would be the first persom whom I would block.
Are we even believers of the same Faith, catholic and apostolic, and of the same Church, one and holy? I have my doubts.
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I sincerely wish that the ability to block persons were to exist on CathInfo.
You, Pax, would be the first persom whom I would block.
Are we even believers of the same Faith, catholic and apostolic, and of the same Church, one and holy? I have my doubts.
Right. The V2 Modernists get rid of "Holy Ghost" and you say "hey, no big deal." Then you trash Trads for being stupid. You sound like Pope Francis. Not sure why you're on this site.
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However, I know that "Holy Spirit" is of IDENTICAL meaning to "Holy Ghost".
So does that mean it's OK to call St. Michael, St. Raphael, and St. Gabriel a Holy Ghost? :facepalm:
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Usually Holy Ghost except when I'm referring to baptism of water and the Holy Spirit because that's what the Bible says.
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Thanks all for an excellent debate.
I suppose it all depends on the age you grew up in, and the way you learned your prayers.
You see prayers were leaned off by heart and you repeat them from memory.
That for me will never change. When I hear anyone say Holy Spirit I hear Vatican II.
I also remember saying the prayer to Our Lady, 'before thee I kneel' not before thee I stand.
When I read stand in my new rosary booklet I always feel it lowers the status of the Mother of God
almost like you shouldn't kneel before any statue except Jesus's statue.
After Mass I see many kneel before the statue of Our Lady. I know what Jesus would say.
That said, I do not suggest we pre-Vatican II Catholics are holier than post-Vatican II Catholics.
Indeed the opposite, as they kept the faith when so many lost it.