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Author Topic: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?  (Read 9667 times)

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2022, 01:02:38 PM »
So, given most baptized Catholics are Novus Ordo, how do they get married by a priest/in the Church? For a large percentage, we're not talking about people who even assist at a Latin Mass (who probably would marry in front of a priest anyway).

Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2022, 02:14:09 PM »
So, given most baptized Catholics are Novus Ordo, how do they get married by a priest/in the Church? For a large percentage, we're not talking about people who even assist at a Latin Mass (who probably would marry in front of a priest anyway).
Baptisms in the NO are valid, and are regarded as such unless there is some reason to assume the person had the wrong intent and the proper form was not followed.


Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2022, 03:34:18 PM »
Baptisms in the NO are valid, and are regarded as such unless there is some reason to assume the person had the wrong intent and the proper form was not followed.
I don't think I was clear.  Canon Law requires baptized Catholics to get married before a priest.  What happens when a NO baptized Catholic who doesn't attend mass/doesn't practice gets married to a non-Catholic?  What is the chance that such a person would get married before a NO priest?  Even if he/she did, NO priests are doubtful. In the end, are these NO Catholics actually getting married before a priest?  And if not, what's the chance that such a person would get married before a certainly valid priest (outside of the SSPX, R&R or sede chapels)?

I have to wonder how this canon truly gets fulfilled by most who identify as "Catholic" these days.

Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2022, 03:46:13 PM »
I don't think I was clear.  Canon Law requires baptized Catholics to get married before a priest.  What happens when a NO baptized Catholic who doesn't attend mass/doesn't practice gets married to a non-Catholic?  What is the chance that such a person would get married before a NO priest?  Even if he/she did, NO priests are doubtful. In the end, are these NO Catholics actually getting married before a priest?  And if not, what's the chance that such a person would get married before a certainly valid priest (outside of the SSPX, R&R or sede chapels)?

I have to wonder how this canon truly gets fulfilled by most who identify as "Catholic" these days.
 If you assume that the NO (here shorthand for the post-Vatican II Church) is, indeed, the Catholic Church, and that she has the power of binding and loosing (which, strictly speaking, does not require that the Petrine chair be occupied by a valid Pope), then if a pastor allows a couple to marry, then whether the priest is validly ordained or not, shouldn't matter.  

I know, it's messy.

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2022, 04:10:44 PM »
"Legal fiction" is not a disparaging term.  It's a term from common law.  There's nothing disedifying about it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_fiction

Another such legal fiction is treating children from putative marriages, later declared null, as being legitimate.  If the marriage never existed, then of course they are bastards (another term that is merely a neutral statement of fact, viz. a child born out of wedlock, but that has become disparaging in common parlance), but for many reasons, the Church declares them to be considered legitimate.  Aside from the social stigma attaching to bastardy, there could be some secular jurisdictions that would look to the Church, in the case of Catholics anyway, to decide whether a child is legitimate or not.  (And it's never the child's fault.)

A sanatio in radice is another example of a legal fiction in ecclesiastical law.

Sorry, I assumed that you meant it in a disparaging way. For the record, this is from the source you cited:

The term legal fiction is sometimes used in a pejorative way. Jeremy Bentham was a famous historical critic of legal fictions.[3][4] Proponents of legal fictions, particularly their use historically (for example, before DNA evidence could give every child the ability to have both genetic parents determined), identify legal fictions as "scaffolding around a building under construction".[5]


I’m always very hesitant in questioning the wisdom of the Church and Her laws. Actually, when I question it, it’s only because I want to understand Her reasoning behind it.