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Author Topic: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?  (Read 9599 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2022, 01:21:54 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on December 04, 2022, 10:07:22 PM
What's interesting is that when Pope Pius IX condemned the Old Catholics, he accused them of rejecting the indefectibility (not infallibility) of the Church.  He realized that it was a bit of a circular argument to say that they were rejecting an infallibly-defined dogma when it was the ability of a pope to infallibly define dogma that was being defined.  So he teaches that the Old Catholics are heretical because their conclusion would mean that the Catholic Church had "gone off the rails" ... which is not possible given her indefectibility.  That's why I keep saying that the core problem here really is indefectibility.  People can quibble to a certain extent regarding the precise limits of "infallibility in the strict sense" (as Msgr. Fenton called it), but with the Conciliar Church we're not talking about a problematic statement in an Encyclical Letter, but the establishment of an entirely new theological system, system of worship ... in short, a new religion that, were this change attributed to the Catholic Church, it would be tantamount to a substantial corruption of the Catholic Church, making it unrecognizable as a religion to Catholics who lived and died before Vatican II, and therefore lacking the notes or marks of the One True Church founded by Christ.  That is the problem here more than the precise legal disposition of a heretic pope.

So the Old Catholics would have been theologically sound on indefectibility if they had declared Pius IX a heretic and therefore not a pope since not Catholic, and therefore the true Catholic Church, which is only governed by legitimate, non-heretical, Catholic popes, was still somewhere present and indefectible post-Vatican I? That church under Pius IX, perhaps the First Conciliar Church, whatever it was, wasn't the Catholic Church - so would go an Old Catholic who had his argument tightened. 

That's basically your argument: the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church because its "popes" and bishops who accept their doctrine and governance are heretics and the true Catholic Church remains among us and indefectible despite those four or five or whatever non-popes sitting on the see of Peter for some 60 years running and no visible governing body for that entire period. 

You're an Old Catholic with the benefit of about 150 or so years of theological refinement. 
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2022, 02:07:59 PM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on December 05, 2022, 01:14:19 PM
An even bigger "however" is the fact that canon 1098 allows a couple to marry in front of non-appointed witnesses if it is foreseen that their pastor will not be available within a month. I believe that due to the crisis of the Church, canon 1098 applies more or less wholesale to Catholic marriages today, rendering many marriages which would otherwise be invalid, valid.

Hello Mithrandylan-

Do you say 1098 applies wholesale amidst this crisis because there are no more church pastors holding legitimate office (which wouls satisfy sedes, but not R&R)?

or

Do you say 1098 applies because the moral impossibility of a trad summoning a conciliar priest satisfies the "grave inconvenience" exception clause of 1098 (which would satisfy both sedes and R&R)?
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2022, 02:15:29 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 05, 2022, 02:07:59 PM
Hello Mithrandylan-

Do you say 1098 applies wholesale amidst this crisis because there are no more church pastors holding legitimate office (which wouls satisfy sedes, but not R&R)?

or

Do you say 1098 applies because the moral impossibility of a trad summoning a conciliar priest satisfies the "grave inconvenience" exception clause of 1098 (which would satisfy both sedes and R&R)?
.
I do not hold that there are no more church pastors, but I do hold that it is extraordinarily difficult to determine who they are, and would concede that most Catholics are without pastors for all intents and purposes due to the difficulty in sorting the proverbial wheat from the chaff. So between the two options you gave, my position would be closer to the latter.
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2022, 02:18:38 PM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on December 05, 2022, 02:15:29 PM
.
I do not hold that there are no more church pastors, but I do hold that it is extraordinarily difficult to determine who they are, and would concede that most Catholics are without pastors for all intents and purposes due to the difficulty in sorting the proverbial wheat from the chaff. So between the two options you gave, my position would be closer to the latter.

Much appreciated; thank you.
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2022, 02:22:01 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 05, 2022, 02:18:38 PM
Much appreciated; thank you.
For what it's worth, I think marriages officiated by the SSPX, CMRI, and other independent clergy are valid marriages by virtue of canon 1098 rather than by virtue of any particular supplied jurisdiction. or at least, I think the argument from canon 1098 is a much stronger, more airtight argument than an argument from supplied jurisdiction or common error.
.
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