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Author Topic: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?  (Read 9601 times)

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2022, 12:23:14 PM »

Ott says this:
This ^^ is what I was getting at - initially, the Church regards all marriages as valid, and if they are not valid She needs to declare them invalid.

I think there are probably some marriage minded trads out there who, having no luck finding another trad to marry, might start to think there is an open field of invalidly married potential spouses out there they can tap into. Or converts to tradition who married when they were prot or NO or whatever and think they see a way out of a bad marriage. But the Church always initially says the marriages are valid until She declares them invalid.
That's exactly the reason I started this thread and the explanation I was looking for. Thank you

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2022, 12:42:58 PM »
Simply, Catholics are not permitted to marry outside of the Church is because to do so is a mortal sin, but the marriage itself is still valid by virtue of the contract - provided both spouses were free to marry.

Someone feel free to correct me, but because of the Marriage Contract, Catholics who are free to marry and marry before a justice of the peace or outside of the Church does not in and of itself automatically render the marriage null. Sinful but not null.

This is not correct.  Such marriage would be invalid.  This is the same issue you have with attempting to reduce heresy / schism to mortal sin.

Canon Law explicitly states that these marriages are invalid ... not merely illicit (i.e. sinful).


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2022, 12:44:49 PM »
Just out of curiosity, do these people just reject Pius IX, or all popes after him as well?  That would be a very long period of sede vacante. Shades of Richard Ibranyi!

Not saying I embrace this WRT Pius IX --- I don't --- but couldn't any given pope just be an antipope in isolation, assuming that subsequent conclaves were able to elect valid popes?  Or if you maintain that one pope is an antipope, then does the papacy basically "die" until... until what?  The latter doesn't really make sense.

This individual I mentioned merely limited this to Pius IX, but yes, there's no real theological backstop from there to declaring the every pope since then to be also invalid ... i.e. going Ibranyi, or, more recently, Pontrello.  Once you go there, it's a hop, skip, and a jump to either Old Catholicism or Orthodoxy (which is where Ponrello and some of his "followers" ended up).

This was the central point of that "Pope-Sifting" letter (that The Angelus printed without my permissions as an article).  This phenomenon is precisely what I referred to as Pope-Sifting.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2022, 12:56:25 PM »
I dunno, you could be right, but I think Matrimony is a different case from Ordinations / Absolutions.

Ott says this:
This ^^ is what I was getting at - initially, the Church regards all marriages as valid, and if they are not valid She needs to declare them invalid.

I think there are probably some marriage minded trads out there who, having no luck finding another trad to marry, might start to think there is an open field of invalidly married potential spouses out there they can tap into. Or converts to tradition who married when they were prot or NO or whatever and think they see a way out of a bad marriage. But the Church always initially says the marriages are valid until She declares them invalid.

Your citation rejects the separation between the marriage and the Sacrament.

Regardless, however, the Decree on Armenians simply referred to the fact that the couple actually contract the marriage, rather than the priest, at least in the Latin Rite (it's different in the Eastern).  This decree on the Armenians was referring to the schismatic Armenian Church, so the question was whether marriage contracted without the witness of a priest was valid for them (i.e. for these non-Catholics) or whether, upon being readmitted to the Church they would be considered valid.  This was to distinguish those couples among these schismatic non-Catholics who got officially married before a priest.   So the Church declares that these marriages among non-Catholics did not require the witness of a priest, i.e. not only did the Church accept as married those among them who had their marriages witnessed by a priest, but also those who did not, since the Church here declared here that 1) the couple contract the Sacrament of Matrimony and 2) the requirement for a priest to officiate or witness it does not apply to non-Catholics.

Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2022, 01:14:19 PM »
If a person baptized in the Catholic Church does not observe the correct form, they marry invalidly. However-- and this is a BIG however-- the form of Catholic marriage is the exchange of vows before a lawfully appointed minister of the Catholic Church. It is not the wedding mass, nor even the prescribed nuptial rite itself. It has everything to do with who is witnessing the marriage on behalf of the Church.
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An even bigger "however" is the fact that canon 1098 allows a couple to marry in front of non-appointed witnesses if it is foreseen that their pastor will not be available within a month. I believe that due to the crisis of the Church, canon 1098 applies more or less wholesale to Catholic marriages today, rendering many marriages which would otherwise be invalid, valid.