Author Topic: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book  (Read 3217 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2018, 06:53:13 PM »
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  • https://archive.org/details/ContraCrawfordBoD/page/n121


    pg. 108


    Quote
    Crawford quoted St. Augustine as saying…

    “How many sincere catechumens die unbaptized, and are thus lost forever.

    The quote is actually from…

    No one knows, possibly a 1961 book called Augustine The Bishop by a Fr. Van Der Meer. May or may not actually be the words of Augustine.


    I'm looking for the original source of the quote. I'll have the book within a week or two.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #31 on: November 11, 2018, 07:05:06 PM »
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  • Ah, yes, this puts on display the level of intellect that one will no doubt find throughout this tome.  This above was the answer to the contention, which has been amply proven over years here on CathInfo, that the BoDer ecclesiology is identical to that of the Vatican II establishment, and that all the Vatican II errors derive from this non-Catholic ecclesiology.  We have presented the arguments, and these have never been refuted.  In fact, no refutation has ever been attempted.  Instead, you get "rebuttals" such as the one quoted above.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/genuinely-curious-rejection-of-baptism-and-the-council-of-trent/msg611628/#msg611628


    Quote
    99% of the people who promote BOD do not even believe that a desire to be baptized is necessary for salvation, nor a desire to be a Catholic, or belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity. They believe that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews etc., can be saved without "a desire to be baptized, nor a desire to be a Catholic, or belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity".

    If you are sincere as you say, ponder on that, for that is the REAL SUBJECT to be debated with the promoters of BOD, and not some catechumen who got run over by a bus on his way to be baptized.


    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/genuinely-curious-rejection-of-baptism-and-the-council-of-trent/msg612040/#msg612040
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Merry

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #32 on: November 11, 2018, 11:28:37 PM »
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  • On the Novus Ordo Watch site, they advertise/promote the Contra book - but don't give you the whole story, offer Fr. Crawford's booklet or "his side of the story," or allow comments at the bottom.  This Contra book is theological junk, written by amateurs.  Yes, another CMRI-related hit piece.  These lay people, Contra authors make a point to not mention the hit done unto Fr. Crawford by the CMRI, in saying he did not answer their theological questionnaire to him at about the time he left them - when he actually did three times, and had the post office mailing receipts, etc., and proof they did receive his mailed answers. And his were good answers on NFP and EENS.  There does seem to be a vendetta against Fr. Crawford here.

    It is too bad Fr. Crawford is a sede as this affects some of his other positions regarding the approaches to be taken in living the trad life. However he seems a master on the subject of No Salvation and BOB/BOD-Council of Trent.

      



       
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #33 on: November 12, 2018, 12:15:31 AM »
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  • So, which one are you, Fellows or Conlon?  I see that you created an account just to plug your book.  I'm sure that your immediate family members will find it enjoyable.  It's a shame that you would spend so much time and effort writing AGAINST Catholic dogma.
    .
    The same can be said of many CMRI types. Why would a whole congregation spend so much time and effort opposing Catholic dogma?
    .
    Ultimately their conspicuous animosity toward defined dogma shows their real object of scorn is the principle of defined dogma.
    .
    It seems they don't really know what it means for a dogma to be infallibly defined by Holy Mother Church. Nor do they want to learn.
    .
    Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 09, 2018, 06:14:42 AM
    Quote
    Quote
    That's likely why we do not see Lover of Truth here on CI, he was writing that book.


    Ah, yes, because his name is John Gregory and the authors who wrote the book are named John Gregory and John Gregory.  Did you even read the review?  The posts in this thread get dumber and dumber!
    .
    It would seem "his name" is ContraCrawfordBook as far as is relevant among CI members. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #34 on: November 12, 2018, 12:17:24 AM »
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  • Wow. I'm sorry I even brought this up
    .
    Are you still sorry?
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #35 on: November 12, 2018, 06:07:00 AM »
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  • Yes, buying hundreds and hundreds of copies from a print-on-demand service where the supply is infinite would be a great discouragement to us!  You'll need to find a way to burn down the archive.org servers too, though, since that's how most people are reading it.
    I pay very little attention to this subject any more, mainly because it most certainly displeases God when anyone goes about  preaching that God Himself is just as taken by surprise as the infidel, by his unforeseen death - let alone prior to receiving a baptism which he is presumed to have desired. What - was God just too preoccupied doing something else to provide the time, the water and the minister for the infidels? What is it that God was so busy doing that the infidels had to save themselves anyway? 

    Your above reply, by missing the point of my post, demonstrates the real reason and the main purpose you are publishing such a book as this, namely, you are out to make whatever money you can off of the evil thing.

    The book is iniquitous, it is a scandal and Catholics faithful to the Church's teachings on the Sacrament of Baptism have cause to condemn and avoid reading it, the book serves no other purpose than to falsely attribute it to be a teaching of the Church that there is hope for salvation and that salvation is attainable outside of the Church, without the Sacrament of Baptism.  Same o same o.

    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #36 on: November 12, 2018, 12:14:14 PM »
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  • ... the book serves no other purpose than to falsely attribute it to be a teaching of the Church that there is hope for salvation and that salvation is attainable outside of the Church, without the Sacrament of Baptism.  ...

    This ^^^.  And one could say the same thing about BoD in general.  What purposes does it serve except as something that can be exploited to undermine Catholic dogma?

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #37 on: November 12, 2018, 12:30:16 PM »
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  • .
    Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 10:14:14 AM
    Quote
    .
    Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 04:07:00 AM
    Quote
    .
    ... the book serves no other purpose than to falsely attribute it to be a teaching of the Church that there is hope for salvation and that salvation is attainable outside of the Church, without the Sacrament of Baptism.  ...
    This ^^^.  And one could say the same thing about BoD in general.  
    What purposes does it serve except as something that can be exploited to undermine Catholic dogma?
    .
    All true, sadly. The bottom line is perhaps there is money to be made by pretending that you're Catholic and sell books that demean Catholic dogma and the very principle of the infallibility of dogma.
    .
    That has always been the work of the devil, since day one: deny the truth of God and sell it to vulnerable men by whose fall you might profit...
         That is, you might profit for a while, after which comes the inevitable Judgment and the inexorable direct consequence.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #38 on: November 12, 2018, 12:38:26 PM »
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  • .
    FWIW the brother priests Radecki (CMRI) are on their second year of excuses for not having their latest book finished yet.
    They are making excuses as we approach Advent saying it should be done after Christmas. But they said that last November, too.
    Perhaps they've had to re-write it after reading threads like this on CathInfo!  ::)
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #39 on: November 12, 2018, 12:46:56 PM »
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  • .
    Quote from: Ladislaus on Yesterday at 06:57:32 AM
    Quote

    Ah, yes, this puts on display the level of intellect that one will no doubt find throughout this tome.  This above was the answer to the contention, which has been amply proven over years here on CathInfo, that the BoDer ecclesiology is identical to that of the Vatican II establishment, and that all the Vatican II errors derive from this non-Catholic ecclesiology.  We have presented the arguments, and these have never been refuted.  In fact, no refutation has ever been attempted.  
    .
    Instead, you get "rebuttals" such as the one quoted above.

    That, sir, is a very sorry excuse for a "rebuttal."
    .
    It was highly fortuitous for ContraCrawfordBook to register his one-post-wonder username only to come in here and expose himself for all to see.
    .
    By their works you shall know them ----------- how prophetic those words are.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #40 on: November 20, 2018, 09:38:28 PM »
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  • Quote
    https://archive.org/details/ContraCrawfordBoD/page/n121


    pg. 108



    I'm looking for the original source of the quote. I'll have the book within a week or two.


    Augustine the Bishop by F. Van der Meer

    pgs. 149 - 150

    7. Day-to-Day Pastoral Work

    (. . .)

    The Indifferent

    (. . .)

    Augustine never sought to make easy excuses for those who kept putting off baptism. Some did this from indifference and through the lack of any serious element in their dispositions, some from that peculiar laziness which Augustine had himself had occasion to observe in his own father Patricius, for Patricius, after being a catechumen for many years, was only baptized in 371, when he was actually on his death-bed and Augustine himself was already seventeen years of age.(94) There were others who pointed to some baptized blockhead, who was a scoundrel in the bargain, and haughtily demanded whether they were not better men than he. Augustine's comment on these occasions was that Christ himself had been baptized "for the sake of the proud men who were still to come".

    "It often happens that a catechumen knows more of his religion and leads a better life than many others who have been baptized. He sees how badly instructed a baptized person can often be and that his way of life is often much less recollected and much less chaste than his own. He himself never thinks of women, yet he sees Christians, who, while remaining innocent of actual adultery, practice little self control toward their wives. Even so, no man has a right to puff himself up and say, 'Why should I be baptized? Why should I desire desire to partake of something that happens to be possessed by another who is my inferior both in the matter of conduct and knowledge? The Lord will answer him, 'How much is he thy inferior? As much as those art mine? Or is perhaps the servant greater than the master?' ".(95)

    In most cases the motive for avoiding baptism lay in the desire of such men not to be bound. They wanted to be free to sin and then get rid of their sins cheaply and all at once when the appropriate moment came. Augustine did not mince matters in this connection. They think, he said, that as catechumens they can make light of their adulteries, and then have the effrontery to compare themselves with the woman in the Temple who "also was not condemned".(96)

    This whole evil was one with which Augustine never wearied in doing battle. Even the anniversary of his consecration found him in fighting mood. I care naught, he cried out on this occasion, that today of all the days you expect to hear something pleasant from me. I must warn you in the words of Holy Scripture: "Defer it not from day to day, for his wrath shall come on a sudden." God knows that I tremble in my cathedra myself when I hear those words. I must not, I cannot be silent. I am compelled to preach to you on this matter and "to make you fearful, being myself full of fear".(97)

    How dangerous, he says, is is every delay! How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their death on their death-beds? And how many earnest catechumens die unbaptized?--which, for Augustine, is equivalent to saying that they are lost for ever.(98 ) He compares the carefree condition of mind that such people often display with the dread sleeping-sickness of an old man, who keeps on saying "Let me sleep", although the doctor keeps warning those around him that sleep is the one thing he must not do. And do not make it a reproach to me, he continues, that I disturb your peace of mind. How can I comfort you when the threat comes from God himself? For I am but the steward, not the father of the house.(99) "You say, 'I will do it later, I will do it tomorrow. Why do you frighten us? Have we not been promised forgiveness?' Yes, forgiveness is promised you, but it has been promised to you that you shall see tomorrow."


    Notes from pg. 613

    95. IP, 90, 2, 6.
    96. DSI, 20, 6.
    97. FSA, 2, 7 and 8; see Ecclus. v.8-9
    98. SE, 27, 6.
    99. FSA, 2, 8b-9

    Abbrevations can be found starting on page XI, in the front of the book.

    IP = Enarrationes in Psalmos
    DSI = Denis, Sancti Aurelii Augustini Sermones Inediti
    FSA = Frangipane, Sancti Aurelii Augustini Hipponensis Episcopi Sermones X
    SE = Sermones



    Note 95, Exposition on Psalm 90:

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801090.htm


    Note 96 text, Jesuit, Michael Denis:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=oGg7WvZhAckC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false


    Note 97 and 99 text, Dom Frangipane:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=gdZLAAAAcAAJ&pg=PP7&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false


    Note 98 refers to Sermon 27 which I already posted:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/will-be-interested-to-hear-thoughts-on-this-new-bodbob-book/msg634012/#msg634012
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #41 on: November 20, 2018, 09:51:05 PM »
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  • The words are Fr. Meer's, a paraphrase of St. Augustine's Sermon 27.

    Fr. Meer:

    Quote
    How dangerous, he says, is is every delay! How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their death on their death-beds? And how many earnest catechumens die unbaptized?

    St. Augustine:


    Quote
    "Why did he come to the help of this one and not that one? Why was this one steered by God's guiding hand to get baptized, while that other one who had lived a good life as a catechumen suddenly collapsed and died, without ever reaching baptism? That other one again, who lived such a vicious life, as a lecher, as an adulterer, as a play-actor, as a bullfighter, fell ill, was baptized, departed this life, and in him sin was overcome, in him sin was eliminated-why?"

    Look for desserts, and all you will find is punishment. Look for grace-Oh the depth of the riches! Peter denies, the thief believes-Oh the depth of the riches! (Rom 11:33).

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #42 on: November 20, 2018, 09:56:57 PM »
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  • The words of St. Augustine are more forceful, the entirety of Sermon 27 deals with justice and unfairness. The word delay is not mentioned, there is no exposition about deferring Baptism.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Z3XYAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

    It's from pages 104 to 110, including the notes.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline ContraCrawfordBook

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #43 on: December 04, 2018, 03:08:25 PM »
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  • [many good posts sourcing quotes from Augustine & Others]

    Thank you very much!  Clearly you understand and appreciate the need to carefully document one's material when arguing about such important matters.  Hopefully Crawford will see this thread and, with a little luck, your work will rub off on him!


    This ignorance of Father Feeney's positon discredits the book right out of the gate.  Nice attempt to take this quote out of context.  I'm sure that we can expect a lot of that in your book.

    Not that you would know, as you have demonstrated!  Since, after all, the book isn't about Feeney.


    Quote
    Father was then asked whether those who persevered in a state of justification until death would be damned if they did not receive the Sacrament, and he responded in the negative.

    That must have been what he meant when he said, in context, and in his own words, "in case you would like to brush up on what I have been saying" (Bread of Life, p. 56; which it sounds like you, Ladislaus, might need to do!), that:

    "Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water? A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water. Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water? A. No. They are not saved. Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification but have not received Baptism of Water? A. I do not know. Q. Do they go to Hell? A. No. Q. Do they go to Heaven? A. No" (Ibid., pp. 56-7, emphases added).


    Quote
    For, you see, this is begging the question on your part.  Father denies the possibility (following St. Augustine) that God would allow anyone to persevere in a state of justification without providing the Sacrament to that soul before death.  This is the clear teaching of St. Augustine.  So the hypothetical which you posit as an argument against the anti-BoD position is not granted by our side, and you are begging the question with it.  You assume that it's possible in the first place and then, based on this unproven premise, use this as an argument in favor of BoD.
    Well you seem to have forgotten that the book isn't about Feeney, nor is it about Bread of Life, so there is no question begging.  Go ahead and open the .pdf and see how many times you can find his name in it.  Crawford doesn't even agree with Feeney (which you would know if you'd been forthright in your argumentation and bothered to actually look and see what you were supposed to be arguing against).  So our work leaves him pretty well alone.  We've spent more time here discussing it than we did in the whole hundred and thirty pages of our response to Crawford.

    Ah, yes, this puts on display the level of intellect that one will no doubt find throughout this tome.  This above was the answer to the contention, which has been amply proven over years here on CathInfo, that the BoDer ecclesiology is identical to that of the Vatican II establishment, and that all the Vatican II errors derive from this non-Catholic ecclesiology.  We have presented the arguments, and these have never been refuted.  In fact, no refutation has ever been attempted.  Instead, you get "rebuttals" such as the one quoted above.

    Great point; CathInfo was not one of the sources we consulted when writing the book.  Now that we've had time to review it, we see that the whole book was a mistake and Crawford was right all along!  In your hubris you cannot seem to escape the misconception that this book is about you.  No wonder you are disappointed!  Collect your thoughts and arguments and compose a reply to what we have written.  If it's as bad as you say, we can't imagine it would take long for you to expose our errors and set the record straight.

    Again, another high-quality argument.  An actual perusal of my 15,000+ posts on CathInfo will find this degree of mine mentioned perhaps 2 or 3 times, and only when it's relevant to the discussion being made.  So this absurd ad hominem is also calumny.  I guess that 2 or 3 posts among 15,000 backs your assertion that I can't make it far without bringing it up.

    Yes, not only are you idiots, but you are of bad will, spending lots of energy attacking Catholic dogma.

    What a delicate little drama queen you are!  At least to the credit of the other clowns in this thread, they stay in clownish character.  You, on the other hand, come out swinging with your chest puffed out so far you can't even see your opponent, and then retreat to moral thin ice when your horse manure gets tossed back at you. 

    Page 3 sets forth the false theological premise:

    "The ordinary magisterium is just as infallible as the extraordinary magisterium."

    bzzzt.  It's the Ordinary UNIVERSAL Magisterium that is just as infallible, when teaching that a matter has been "divinely revealed" (cf. Vatican I).  So, as I said, this entire thing rests on the distorted sedevacantist position on infallibility.  I was correct in my initial speculation.  We've had sedevacantist clowns here on CI believe that any book that has ever received an imprimatur from a legitimate bishop was protected by infallibility.  Now, that's an extreme, but there are sedevacantists all along that continuum because they fail to add the word "universal" (and the term "divinely revealed") into the equation when discussing the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium.

    Goodness, do you ever struggle to compose your thoughts and present them in an ordered way!  Try replying all at once.  Anyways, talk about strawmen.  Most of what you say here has nothing to do with what is argued in the book; you've been terminologically triggered into a tangent about virtual phantoms in the cyberspace.  Try again.

    Then the ignorami argue that Trent teaches that the supernatural virtues begin before Baptism, speaking of the faith, hope, and charity which lead to justification.  False.  All theologians who treat of this subject teach that Trent here refers to incipient faith, hope, and charity, the natural analogues to the supernatural virtues of the same name, what they call fides initialis, etc.  The actual SUPERNATURAL virtues arrive in the soul at the exact same time as justification, not before ... and they all arrive together at the initial justification, not first one, and then the other.  This is all universally taught by theologians.

    Phenomenal insight!  Since all of them teach that this is what Trent means, we look forward to you quoting them!  You know, when you simmer down and compose a proper reply instead of this:

    Quote
    But then the authors claim to be refuting the position of Father Feeney, and Father Feeney himself felt that these supernatural virtues (and justification itself) could arrive before Sacramental Baptism.  Evidently Crawford changed his position away from that of Father Feeney to the more Dimondist view.  Nevertheless, the book's authors equivocate between attempting to refute Crawford and Father Feeney ... even though their positions are not identical.

    ... Which, again, we never do.  Do try to make it seem like you care about responding to the actual argument, yes?

    The authors of this book validly argue that if you concede the possibility of a justified catechumen somewhere, this soul is already within the Church because Justification simply does not occur outside the Catholic Church. OK. However, I strongly suspect that the authors do not limit the possibility of salvific BOD strictly to pious catechumens. Or do they?

    Do they believe that a Moslem, Jew, pagan, Hindu, etc. can be saved because somehow he became an invisible justified "catechumen" in the microseconds preceding death? I don't have a problem if you want to believe in thomistic BOD (remote possibility for a sincere catechumen who dies before the water), if it is properly taught applying solely for catechumens and no one else. Evidently, someone belonging to a false religion is most certainly not a catechumen of the Catholic Church. The authors argue correctly that the teaching of Baptism of Desire never interfered with the EENS dogma in the past centuries. If properly taught and understood, it should not be.


    Amazing!  Someone's actually read it.  Try it out, Ladislaus.  If your temper lets you.

    On the Novus Ordo Watch site, they advertise/promote the Contra book - but don't give you the whole story, offer Fr. Crawford's booklet or "his side of the story," or allow comments at the bottom.  This Contra book is theological junk, written by amateurs.  Yes, another CMRI-related hit piece.  These lay people, Contra authors make a point to not mention the hit done unto Fr. Crawford by the CMRI, in saying he did not answer their theological questionnaire to him at about the time he left them - when he actually did three times, and had the post office mailing receipts, etc., and proof they did receive his mailed answers. And his were good answers on NFP and EENS.  There does seem to be a vendetta against Fr. Crawford here.

    What a phenomenally strange thing to say given that we include a hundred pages worth of appendices of Crawford's work which include his precious receipts and hurt feelings.  We also provide, on the very first page, a very brief history of Crawford which includes the fact that he has written multiple replies to Pivarunas.  Nothing is hidden; on the contrary, we're distributing his book for him now.  It's at the end of ours!

    I pay very little attention to this subject any more, mainly because it most certainly displeases God when anyone goes about  preaching that God Himself is just as taken by surprise as the infidel, by his unforeseen death - let alone prior to receiving a baptism which he is presumed to have desired. What - was God just too preoccupied doing something else to provide the time, the water and the minister for the infidels? What is it that God was so busy doing that the infidels had to save themselves anyway? 

    Your above reply, by missing the point of my post, demonstrates the real reason and the main purpose you are publishing such a book as this, namely, you are out to make whatever money you can off of the evil thing.

    The book is iniquitous, it is a scandal and Catholics faithful to the Church's teachings on the Sacrament of Baptism have cause to condemn and avoid reading it, the book serves no other purpose than to falsely attribute it to be a teaching of the Church that there is hope for salvation and that salvation is attainable outside of the Church, without the Sacrament of Baptism.  Same o same o.

    A regular ol' Robert Johnson tale, ours is.  Who would have ever anticipated the diabolical fame and fortune that awaits those who give their books away for free!
    Full (free) .pdf: link
    Paperback: link

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #44 on: December 04, 2018, 04:06:51 PM »
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  • That must have been what he meant when he said, in context, and in his own words, "in case you would like to brush up on what I have been saying" (Bread of Life, p. 56; which it sounds like you, Ladislaus, might need to do!), that:

    "Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water? A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water. Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water? A. No. They are not saved. Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification but have not received Baptism of Water? A. I do not know. Q. Do they go to Hell? A. No. Q. Do they go to Heaven? A. No" (Ibid., pp. 56-7, emphases added).
    Selective quoting is always such a very necessary thing with BODers, let's not cut the good Fr. Feeney short......

    Q.  Are there any such souls?  A. I do not know! Neither do you!


    While you're at it, also remember the good priest, Fr. James Wathen:

    "Whether it is because he is such a good person, or such a young person, or such a Liberal-minded person is not for this writer to say: but Father (Laisney) has yet to realize that such is the perversity of fallen men that, if given the hope of being able to gain the advantages of being in the Church without actually entering it, they will surely try it. It is because this is inadmissible that the Church found it necessary to pronounce ever more explicitly and pointedly that one must enter the Church.

    If one is going to do it, almighty God will give one the time to do it, and the water for doing it, and the minister for doing it. [Just as He has done for every human creature who has ever been - and ever will be baptized. This, fyi, is Divine Providence, which is an infallible doctrine of the Church, which a BOD inherently rejects. - Me]

    The notion of "baptism of desire"- and it is only a notion, there is no doctrine to it - falls into the same category as the Protestant form of confession, the confession of one's sins "directly to Christ." As it is stated, it sounds pious and adequate. But God says it is insufficient, because He forgives sins through the Church only, and one must submit oneself to the Church to receive this forgiveness.

    What the Protestant is saying is: I refuse to make this submission, and I require that God forgive me on my terms, because I find the Sacrament of Penance very repugnant and humiliating; and my minister has taught me that I do not have to humiliate myself in this way to obtain God's forgiveness. And I won't do it." - From; Who Shall Ascend?, Fr. Wathen


    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

     

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