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Author Topic: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book  (Read 16334 times)

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Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2018, 10:32:10 AM »

For, you see, this is begging the question on your part.  Father denies the possibility (following St. Augustine) that God would allow anyone to persevere in a state of justification without providing the Sacrament to that soul before death.  This is the clear teaching of St. Augustine.

He also believed that the catechumen is not justified before the reception of sacramental Baptism. From his Commentary of St. John, tractate 13:

Quote
7. But some one will say, It were enough, then, that John baptized only the Lord; what need was there for others to be baptized by John? Now we have said this too, that if John had baptized only the Lord, men would not be without this thought, that John had a better baptism than the Lord had. They would say, in fact, So great was the baptism of John, that Christ alone was worthy to be baptized therewith. Therefore, to show that the baptism which the Lord was to give was better than that of John, — that the one might be understood as that of a servant, the other as that of the Lord, — the Lord was baptized to give an example of humility; but He was not the only one baptized by John, lest John's baptism should appear to be better than the baptism of the Lord. To this end, however, our Lord Jesus Christ showed the way, as you have heard, brethren, lest any man, arrogating to himself that he has abundance of some particular grace, should disdain to be baptized with the baptism of the Lord. For whatever the catechumen's proficiency, he still carries the load of his iniquity: it is not forgiven him until he shall have come to baptism. Just as the people Israel were not rid of the Egyptians until they had come to the Red Sea, so no man is rid of the pressure of sins until he has come to the font of baptism.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701013.htm

The remission of sins is only possible to the baptized, not the catechumens, he argues. From his Sermon to the Catechumens on the Creed:

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16. In three ways then are sins remitted in the Church; by Baptism, by prayer, by the greater humility of penance; yet God does not remit sins but to the baptized. The very sins which He remits first, He remits not but to the baptized. When? When they are baptized. The sins which are after remitted upon prayer, upon penance, to whom He remits, it is to the baptized that He remits. For how can they say, Our Father, who are not yet born sons? The Catechumens, so long as they be such, have upon them all their sins. If Catechumens, how much more Pagans? How much more heretics? But to heretics we do not change their baptism. Why? Because they have baptism in the same way as a deserter has the soldier's mark: just so these also have Baptism; they have it, but to be condemned thereby, not crowned. And yet if the deserter himself, being amended, begin to do duty as a soldier, does any man dare to change his mark?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1307.htm


Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2018, 10:43:25 AM »
The authors of this book validly argue that if you concede the possibility of a justified catechumen somewhere, this soul is already within the Church because Justification simply does not occur outside the Catholic Church. OK. However, I strongly suspect that the authors do not limit the possibility of salvific BOD strictly to pious catechumens. Or do they?

Do they believe that a Moslem, Jew, pagan, Hindu, etc. can be saved because somehow he became an invisible justified "catechumen" in the microseconds preceding death? I don't have a problem if you want to believe in thomistic BOD (remote possibility for a sincere catechumen who dies before the water), if it is properly taught applying solely for catechumens and no one else. Evidently, someone belonging to a false religion is most certainly not a catechumen of the Catholic Church. The authors argue correctly that the teaching of Baptism of Desire never interfered with the EENS dogma in the past centuries. If properly taught and understood, it should not be.

Catechumen definition:

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A learner, a person being instructed preparatory to receiving baptism and being admitted into the Church. The length of the catechumenate varies.

"Catechumen," in the early Church, was the name applied to one who had not yet been initiated into the sacred mysteries, but was undergoing a course of preparation for that purpose.

This person ^^^^ has already expressed a desire ("vow") to actually join the Catholic Church. He has the right disposition. That is why he is receiving instruction.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2018, 05:28:13 PM »
Yes, Cantarella, there are lots of dishonest arguments on the BoD site, including the citation of sources that support the possibility of salvation for catechumens who die without the Sacrament as if these somehow back their thesis that infidels can be saved.

Another is the repeated false allegation that the Church Fathers unanimously approved of BoD.  Quite to the contrary, more Church Fathers rejected BoD than accepted it.  But BoDers conflate BoB quotes as if they somehow favored the BoD hypothesis.

Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2018, 06:28:35 PM »
It seems BOD/BOB is hardly mentioned in the first millennium.

Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2018, 06:42:26 PM »
https://archive.org/details/ContraCrawfordBoD/page/n121

Pg. 107:


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The second and third sentences can be found in various places, probably most notably in Jurgens’ patrology set, The Faith of the Early Fathers. Jurgens says that the material came from a combination of Migne’s Patrologies (which are a reprint of the Maurist) and also Lambot, although he doesn’t specify which material came from which source, and in either event Migne and Lambot are in Greek and Latin so they’d hardly be of much use for our purposes—besides, we doubt Reverend Crawford dove that deep just to fake a quote.


Pg. 108:


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Jurgens, who cites Migne and Lambot, although without distinguishing from where each segment came.


On page 24 of Jurgen's third volume:

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In volume 41 (1961) of the Corpus Christianorum is the start of a new critical edition, Cyril Lambot's texts for the first fifty sermons of the Vulgate numbering, all and only the sermons on Old Testament texts, along with nine others more recently discovered.

(. . .)

In our translations below we will depend on Lambot's texts where available; otherwise, upon the Migne reprint of the Maurist edition. We will, however, cite no sermon that is now commonly regarded as unathentic or of questionable authenticity.


These sermons are apparently from the Old Testament, so I searched for those sermons, specifically for sermon 27.


https://books.google.com/books?id=Z3XYAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Sermons II (20-50) on the Old Testament

pgs. 107-108

Sermon 27

6.

(. . .)

So then, in this life let us hold on tight to the deformed Christ. What do I mean, the deformed Christ? Far be it from me to boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Gal 6:14). That's the deformity of Christ. Did I ever say I knew anything among you, except the road? This is the road, to believe in the crucified. We carry the sign of this deformity on our foreheads. Let us not be ashamed of this deformity of Christ. Let us hold to the way, and we shall arrive at the sight. When we arrive at the sight, we shall see the equal-handedness of God. And no longer will there be any occasion to say there,

"Why did he come to the help of this one and not that one? Why was this one steered by God's guiding hand to get baptized, while that other one who had lived a good life as a catechumen suddenly collapsed and died, without ever reaching baptism? That other one again, who lived such a vicious life, as a lecher, as an adulterer, as a play-actor, as a bullfighter, fell ill, was baptized, departed this life, and in him sin was overcome, in him sin was eliminated-why?"

Look for desserts, and all you will find is punishment. Look for grace-Oh the depth of the riches! Peter denies, the thief believes-Oh the depth of the riches! (Rom 11:33).