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Offline trad123

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Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2018, 10:22:03 PM »
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  • https://archive.org/details/ContraCrawfordBoD/page/n1

    page 109:


    Quote
    Crawford quoted St. Augustine as saying…

    Of what use would repentance be, if Baptism did not follow?

    The quote is actually from…

    No one knows.


    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15071.htm

    On Marriage and Concupiscence (Book I)

    Chapter 38 [XXXIII.]— To Baptism Must Be Referred All Remission of Sins, and the Complete Healing of the Resurrection. Daily Cleansing.

    (. . .)


    Blessed, therefore, is the olive tree "whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;" blessed is it "to which the Lord has not imputed sin." But this, which has received the remission, the covering, and the acquittal, even up to the complete change into an eternal immortality, still retains a secret force which furnishes seed for a wild and bitter olive tree, unless the same tillage of God prunes it also, by remission, covering, and acquittal. There will, however, be left no corruption at all in even carnal seed, when the same regeneration, which is now effected through the sacred laver, purges and heals all man's evil to the very end. By its means the very same flesh, through which the carnal mind was formed, shall become spiritual, — no longer having that carnal lust which resists the law of the mind, no longer emitting carnal seed.

    For in this sense must be understood that which the apostle whom we have so often quoted says elsewhere:

    "Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it; that He might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of water by the word; that He might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:25

    It must, I say, be understood as implying, that by this laver of regeneration and word of sanctification all the evils of regenerate men of whatever kind are cleansed and healed — not the sins only which are all now remitted in baptism, but those also which after baptism are committed by human ignorance and frailty; not, indeed, that baptism is to be repeated as often as sin is repeated, but that by its one only ministration it comes to pass that pardon is secured to the faithful of all their sins both before and after their regeneration.

    For of what use would repentance be, either before baptism, if baptism did not follow; or after it, if it did not precede?

    Nay, in the Lord's Prayer itself, which is our daily cleansing, of what avail or advantage would it be for that petition to be uttered, "Forgive us our debts," Matthew 6:12 unless it be by such as have been baptized? And in like manner, how great soever be the liberality and kindness of a man's alms, what, I ask, would they profit him towards the remission of his sins if he had not been baptized? In short, on whom but on the baptized shall be bestowed the very felicities of the kingdom of heaven; where the Church shall have no spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; where there shall be nothing blameworthy, nothing unreal; where there shall be not only no guilt for sin, but no concupiscence to excite it?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #17 on: November 11, 2018, 08:46:29 AM »
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  • We hope you find it a useful and enjoyable read!

    So, which one are you, Fellows or Conlon?  I see that you created an account just to plug your book.  I'm sure that your immediate family members will find it enjoyable.  It's a shame that you would spend so much time and effort writing AGAINST Catholic dogma.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #18 on: November 11, 2018, 08:54:42 AM »
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  • Well that's just untrue:

    "Q[uestion]. Could [baptism of desire] possibly suffice for you to pass into a state of justification? A[nswer]. It could. Q[uestion]. If you got into the state of justification with the aid of "Baptism of Desire," and then failed to receive Baptism of Water, could you be saved? A[nswer]. Never" (Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life, 1974, p. 50, emphasis added).  

    This ignorance of Father Feeney's positon discredits the book right out of the gate.  Nice attempt to take this quote out of context.  I'm sure that we can expect a lot of that in your book.

    Father was then asked whether those who persevered in a state of justification until death would be damned if they did not receive the Sacrament, and he responded in the negative.

    For, you see, this is begging the question on your part.  Father denies the possibility (following St. Augustine) that God would allow anyone to persevere in a state of justification without providing the Sacrament to that soul before death.  This is the clear teaching of St. Augustine.  So the hypothetical which you posit as an argument against the anti-BoD position is not granted by our side, and you are begging the question with it.  You assume that it's possible in the first place and then, based on this unproven premise, use this as an argument in favor of BoD.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #19 on: November 11, 2018, 08:57:32 AM »
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  • Here we go again... Let us know if you need a podiatrist recommendation for when your foot is surgically removed from your mouth.

    Ah, yes, this puts on display the level of intellect that one will no doubt find throughout this tome.  This above was the answer to the contention, which has been amply proven over years here on CathInfo, that the BoDer ecclesiology is identical to that of the Vatican II establishment, and that all the Vatican II errors derive from this non-Catholic ecclesiology.  We have presented the arguments, and these have never been refuted.  In fact, no refutation has ever been attempted.  Instead, you get "rebuttals" such as the one quoted above.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #20 on: November 11, 2018, 09:00:58 AM »
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  • A quick perusal of your posts suggests you can't make it far without bringing up your failed doctorate attempt.  That must qualify you to post about baptism of desire more than four thousand times.  If we go drop out of CUA will we be worthy of your attention?  Rhetorical question, we're just ignoramuses!

    Again, another high-quality argument.  An actual perusal of my 15,000+ posts on CathInfo will find this degree of mine mentioned perhaps 2 or 3 times, and only when it's relevant to the discussion being made.  So this absurd ad hominem is also calumny.  I guess that 2 or 3 posts among 15,000 backs your assertion that I can't make it far without bringing it up.

    Yes, not only are you idiots, but you are of bad will, spending lots of energy attacking Catholic dogma.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #21 on: November 11, 2018, 09:02:51 AM »
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  • 1) Crawford went off and tried to get himself ordained, is operating as a priest (and has been since he left the CMRI), and has been responsible for many people leaving many chapels-- some who left while he was still a seminarian after he sowed doubt in their minds. 2) You should actually look and see what the book has to say about EENS, and then email us at contracrawfordbook@gmail.com so we can correct any mistakes we made.

    If he was responsible for people leaving CMRI chapels in pursuit of Catholic truth, then good for him.  Yet I can already imagine his current chapel of perhaps a dozen families.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #22 on: November 11, 2018, 09:06:44 AM »
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  • Crawford argues that it is contraception and therefore condemned by Casti Connubii.  If it's contraception then its use is intrinsically evil, permitted under no conditions.  Talk about strawmen!

    Something can be contraception intrinsically (by virtue of the act itself) or extrinsically (by virtue of the formal motive) ... and it's under the second aspect that it's condemned by Casti Conubii.  But you untrained bad-willed morons wouldn't understand such a distinction if it hit you in the face.  Has either author ever even taken a class in formal logic?  In scholastic philosophy/theology?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #23 on: November 11, 2018, 09:16:02 AM »
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  • Page 3 sets forth the false theological premise:

    "The ordinary magisterium is just as infallible as the extraordinary magisterium."

    bzzzt.  It's the Ordinary UNIVERSAL Magisterium that is just as infallible, when teaching that a matter has been "divinely revealed" (cf. Vatican I).  So, as I said, this entire thing rests on the distorted sedevacantist position on infallibility.  I was correct in my initial speculation.  We've had sedevacantist clowns here on CI believe that any book that has ever received an imprimatur from a legitimate bishop was protected by infallibility.  Now, that's an extreme, but there are sedevacantists all along that continuum because they fail to add the word "universal" (and the term "divinely revealed") into the equation when discussing the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #24 on: November 11, 2018, 09:23:12 AM »
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  • Then the ignorami argue that Trent teaches that the supernatural virtues begin before Baptism, speaking of the faith, hope, and charity which lead to justification.  False.  All theologians who treat of this subject teach that Trent here refers to incipient faith, hope, and charity, the natural analogues to the supernatural virtues of the same name, what they call fides initialis, etc.  The actual SUPERNATURAL virtues arrive in the soul at the exact same time as justification, not before ... and they all arrive together at the initial justification, not first one, and then the other.  This is all universally taught by theologians.

    But then the authors claim to be refuting the position of Father Feeney, and Father Feeney himself felt that these supernatural virtues (and justification itself) could arrive before Sacramental Baptism.  Evidently Crawford changed his position away from that of Father Feeney to the more Dimondist view.  Nevertheless, the book's authors equivocate between attempting to refute Crawford and Father Feeney ... even though their positions are not identical.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #25 on: November 11, 2018, 10:32:10 AM »
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  • For, you see, this is begging the question on your part.  Father denies the possibility (following St. Augustine) that God would allow anyone to persevere in a state of justification without providing the Sacrament to that soul before death.  This is the clear teaching of St. Augustine.

    He also believed that the catechumen is not justified before the reception of sacramental Baptism. From his Commentary of St. John, tractate 13:

    Quote
    7. But some one will say, It were enough, then, that John baptized only the Lord; what need was there for others to be baptized by John? Now we have said this too, that if John had baptized only the Lord, men would not be without this thought, that John had a better baptism than the Lord had. They would say, in fact, So great was the baptism of John, that Christ alone was worthy to be baptized therewith. Therefore, to show that the baptism which the Lord was to give was better than that of John, — that the one might be understood as that of a servant, the other as that of the Lord, — the Lord was baptized to give an example of humility; but He was not the only one baptized by John, lest John's baptism should appear to be better than the baptism of the Lord. To this end, however, our Lord Jesus Christ showed the way, as you have heard, brethren, lest any man, arrogating to himself that he has abundance of some particular grace, should disdain to be baptized with the baptism of the Lord. For whatever the catechumen's proficiency, he still carries the load of his iniquity: it is not forgiven him until he shall have come to baptism. Just as the people Israel were not rid of the Egyptians until they had come to the Red Sea, so no man is rid of the pressure of sins until he has come to the font of baptism.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701013.htm

    The remission of sins is only possible to the baptized, not the catechumens, he argues. From his Sermon to the Catechumens on the Creed:

    Quote
    16. In three ways then are sins remitted in the Church; by Baptism, by prayer, by the greater humility of penance; yet God does not remit sins but to the baptized. The very sins which He remits first, He remits not but to the baptized. When? When they are baptized. The sins which are after remitted upon prayer, upon penance, to whom He remits, it is to the baptized that He remits. For how can they say, Our Father, who are not yet born sons? The Catechumens, so long as they be such, have upon them all their sins. If Catechumens, how much more Pagans? How much more heretics? But to heretics we do not change their baptism. Why? Because they have baptism in the same way as a deserter has the soldier's mark: just so these also have Baptism; they have it, but to be condemned thereby, not crowned. And yet if the deserter himself, being amended, begin to do duty as a soldier, does any man dare to change his mark?

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1307.htm

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #26 on: November 11, 2018, 10:43:25 AM »
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  • The authors of this book validly argue that if you concede the possibility of a justified catechumen somewhere, this soul is already within the Church because Justification simply does not occur outside the Catholic Church. OK. However, I strongly suspect that the authors do not limit the possibility of salvific BOD strictly to pious catechumens. Or do they?

    Do they believe that a Moslem, Jew, pagan, Hindu, etc. can be saved because somehow he became an invisible justified "catechumen" in the microseconds preceding death? I don't have a problem if you want to believe in thomistic BOD (remote possibility for a sincere catechumen who dies before the water), if it is properly taught applying solely for catechumens and no one else. Evidently, someone belonging to a false religion is most certainly not a catechumen of the Catholic Church. The authors argue correctly that the teaching of Baptism of Desire never interfered with the EENS dogma in the past centuries. If properly taught and understood, it should not be.

    Catechumen definition:

    Quote
    A learner, a person being instructed preparatory to receiving baptism and being admitted into the Church. The length of the catechumenate varies.

    "Catechumen," in the early Church, was the name applied to one who had not yet been initiated into the sacred mysteries, but was undergoing a course of preparation for that purpose.

    This person ^^^^ has already expressed a desire ("vow") to actually join the Catholic Church. He has the right disposition. That is why he is receiving instruction.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #27 on: November 11, 2018, 05:28:13 PM »
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  • Yes, Cantarella, there are lots of dishonest arguments on the BoD site, including the citation of sources that support the possibility of salvation for catechumens who die without the Sacrament as if these somehow back their thesis that infidels can be saved.

    Another is the repeated false allegation that the Church Fathers unanimously approved of BoD.  Quite to the contrary, more Church Fathers rejected BoD than accepted it.  But BoDers conflate BoB quotes as if they somehow favored the BoD hypothesis.

    Offline Hermenegild

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #28 on: November 11, 2018, 06:28:35 PM »
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  • It seems BOD/BOB is hardly mentioned in the first millennium.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Will be interested to hear thoughts on this new BOD/BOB book
    « Reply #29 on: November 11, 2018, 06:42:26 PM »
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  • https://archive.org/details/ContraCrawfordBoD/page/n121

    Pg. 107:


    Quote
    The second and third sentences can be found in various places, probably most notably in Jurgens’ patrology set, The Faith of the Early Fathers. Jurgens says that the material came from a combination of Migne’s Patrologies (which are a reprint of the Maurist) and also Lambot, although he doesn’t specify which material came from which source, and in either event Migne and Lambot are in Greek and Latin so they’d hardly be of much use for our purposes—besides, we doubt Reverend Crawford dove that deep just to fake a quote.


    Pg. 108:


    Quote
    Jurgens, who cites Migne and Lambot, although without distinguishing from where each segment came.


    On page 24 of Jurgen's third volume:

    Quote
    In volume 41 (1961) of the Corpus Christianorum is the start of a new critical edition, Cyril Lambot's texts for the first fifty sermons of the Vulgate numbering, all and only the sermons on Old Testament texts, along with nine others more recently discovered.

    (. . .)

    In our translations below we will depend on Lambot's texts where available; otherwise, upon the Migne reprint of the Maurist edition. We will, however, cite no sermon that is now commonly regarded as unathentic or of questionable authenticity.


    These sermons are apparently from the Old Testament, so I searched for those sermons, specifically for sermon 27.


    https://books.google.com/books?id=Z3XYAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Sermons II (20-50) on the Old Testament

    pgs. 107-108

    Sermon 27

    6.

    (. . .)

    So then, in this life let us hold on tight to the deformed Christ. What do I mean, the deformed Christ? Far be it from me to boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Gal 6:14). That's the deformity of Christ. Did I ever say I knew anything among you, except the road? This is the road, to believe in the crucified. We carry the sign of this deformity on our foreheads. Let us not be ashamed of this deformity of Christ. Let us hold to the way, and we shall arrive at the sight. When we arrive at the sight, we shall see the equal-handedness of God. And no longer will there be any occasion to say there,

    "Why did he come to the help of this one and not that one? Why was this one steered by God's guiding hand to get baptized, while that other one who had lived a good life as a catechumen suddenly collapsed and died, without ever reaching baptism? That other one again, who lived such a vicious life, as a lecher, as an adulterer, as a play-actor, as a bullfighter, fell ill, was baptized, departed this life, and in him sin was overcome, in him sin was eliminated-why?"

    Look for desserts, and all you will find is punishment. Look for grace-Oh the depth of the riches! Peter denies, the thief believes-Oh the depth of the riches! (Rom 11:33).
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

     

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