Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 7675 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #165 on: June 01, 2018, 01:11:46 PM »
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  • It is you that denies Catholic Truth.

    Explain how Radecki does not contradict defined dogma word for word, claiming that those outside the Church can be saved whereas the Church has dogmatically defined that no one outside the Church can be saved?

    Most EENS-deniers are at least subtle enough to claim that those who appear to be outside the Church maybe really aren't.
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #166 on: June 01, 2018, 01:24:47 PM »
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  • This again proves that most BoDers are not interested in the rare case of a catechumen who might die before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism but rather in finding a wedge they can use to undermine and ultimately deny EENS.
    Vigano for Pope !!!


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #167 on: June 01, 2018, 01:44:32 PM »
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  • Once again, the false theology of Fr Cekada sows discord, error and confusion.  If any priest needed to grow up in orthodox times, where his actions and writings would've been peer reviewed and managed, it's him.  He's like a gun-toting Federal Marshall who rides through small, quiet Western towns and causes a rukus because he has a badge.

    Online trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #168 on: June 02, 2018, 02:36:28 PM »
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  • Fourth Lateran Council: 1215

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum12-2.htm



    Quote
    Constitutions  

    1. Confession of Faith

    (. . .)

    There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice. His body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the forms of bread and wine, the bread and wine having been changed in substance, by God’s power, into his body and blood, so that in order to achieve this mystery of unity we receive from God what he received from us. Nobody can effect this sacrament except a priest who has been properly ordained according to the church’s keys, which Jesus Christ himself gave to the apostles and their successors. But the sacrament of baptism is consecrated in water at the invocation of the undivided Trinity — namely Father, Son and holy Spirit — and brings salvation to both children and adults when it is correctly carried out by anyone in the form laid down by the church. If someone falls into sin after having received baptism, he or she can always be restored through true penitence. For not only virgins and the continent but also married persons find favour with God by right faith and good actions and deserve to attain to eternal blessedness.

    St. Cyril

    Catechetical Lecture 5

    Of Faith

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310105.htm

    Quote
    1. How great a dignity the Lord bestows on you in transferring you from the order of Catechumens to that of the Faithful, the Apostle Paul shows, when he affirms, God is faithful, by Whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:9 For since God is called Faithful, thou also in receiving this title receive a great dignity. For as God is called Good, and Just, and Almighty, and Maker of the Universe, so is He also called Faithful. Consider therefore to what a dignity you are rising, seeing you are to become partaker of a title of God.


    St. John Chrysostom

    Homily 25 on the Gospel of John

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240125.htm




    Quote
    3.

    (. . .)

    What advantages it to be bound by the ties of earthly family, if we are not joined by those of the spiritual? What profits nearness of kin on earth, if we are to be strangers in heaven? For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful. He has not the same Head, he has not the same Father, he has not the same City, nor Food, nor Raiment, nor Table, nor House, but all are different; all are on earth to the former, to the latter all are in heaven. One has Christ for his King; the other, sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes; one has worms' work for his raiment, the other the Lord of angels; heaven is the city of one, earth of the other. Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion? Did we remove the same pangs, did we come forth from the same womb? This has nothing to do with that most perfect relationship. Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city which is above. How long do we tarry over the border, when we ought to reclaim our ancient country? We risk no common danger; for if it should come to pass, (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be no other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.


    St. Leo the Great

    Sermon 26

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360326.htm

    Quote
    II. Christians are essentially participators in the nativity of Christ

    Although, therefore, that infancy, which the majesty of God's Son did not disdain, reached mature manhood by the growth of years and, when the triumph of His passion and resurrection was completed, all the actions of humility which were undertaken for us ceased, yet today's festival renews for us the holy childhood of Jesus born of the Virgin Mary: and in adoring the birth of our Saviour, we find we are celebrating the commencement of our own life. For the birth of Christ is the source of life for Christian folk, and the birthday of the Head is the birthday of the body. Although every individual that is called has his own order, and all the sons of the Church are separated from one another by intervals of time, yet as the entire body of the faithful being born in the font of baptism is crucified with Christ in His passion, raised again in His resurrection, and placed at the Father's right hand in His ascension, so with Him are they born in this nativity. For any believer in whatever part of the world that is re-born in Christ, quits the old paths of his original nature and passes into a new man by being re-born; and no longer is he reckoned of his earthly father's stock but among the seed of the Saviour, Who became the Son of man in order that we might have the power to be the sons of God.


    St. Hilary of Poitiers

    On the Trinity (Book VIII)

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/index.html



    Quote
    7. For as to those whose soul and heart were one, I ask whether they were one through faith in God? Yes, assuredly, through faith, for through this the soul and heart of all were one. Again I ask, is the faith one or is there a second faith? One undoubtedly, and that on the authority of the Apostle himself, who proclaims one faith even as one Lord, and one baptism, and one hope, and one God. Ephesians 4:4-5 If then it is through faith, that is, through the nature of one faith, that all are one, how is it that you do not understand a natural unity in the case of those who through the nature of one faith are one? For all were born again to innocence, to immortality, to the knowledge of God, to the faith of hope. And if these things cannot differ within themselves because there is both one hope and one God, as also there is one Lord and one baptism of regeneration; if these things are one rather by agreement than by nature, ascribe a unity of will to those also who have been born again into them. If, however, they have been begotten again into the nature of one life and eternity, then, inasmuch as their soul and heart are one, the unity of will fails to account for their case who are one by regeneration into the same nature.

    8. These are not our own conjectures which we offer, nor do we falsely put together any of these things in order to deceive the ears of our hearers by perverting the meaning of words; but holding fast the form of sound teaching we know and preach the things which are true. For the Apostle shows that this unity of the faithful arises from the nature of the sacraments when he writes to the Galatians, For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:27-28 That these are one amid so great diversities of race, condition, sex — is it from an agreement of will or from the unity of the sacrament, since these have one baptism and have all put on one Christ? What, therefore, will a concord of minds avail here when they are one in that they have put on one Christ through the nature of one baptism?


    Mystici Corporis

    The Mystical Body of Christ, the Church

    Pope Pius XII - 1943

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12mysti.htm


    Quote
    10.

    (. . .)

    Indeed no true and perfect human society can be conceived which is not governed by some supreme authority. Christ therefore must have given to His Church a supreme authority to which all Christians must render obedience. For this reason, as the unity of the faith is of necessity required for the unity of the church, inasmuch as it is the body of the faithful, so also for this same unity, inasmuch as the Church is a divinely constituted society, unity of government, which effects and involves unity of communion, is necessary jure divino. “The unity of the Church is manifested in the mutual connection or communication of its members, and likewise in the relation of all the members of the Church to one head” (St. Thomas, 2a 2ae, 9, xxxix., a. I). From this it is easy to see that men can fall away from the unity of the Church by schism, as well as by heresy. “We think that this difference exists between heresy and schism” (writes St. Jerome): “heresy has no perfect dogmatic teaching, whereas schism, through some Episcopal dissent, also separates from the Church” (S. Hieronymus, Comment. in Epist. ad Titum, cap. iii., v. 1011). In which judgment St. John Chrysostom concurs: “I say and protest (he writes) that it is as wrong to divide the Church as to fall into heresy” (Hom. xi., in Epist. ad Ephes., n. 5). Wherefore as no heresy can ever be justifiable, so in like manner there can be no justification for schism. “There is nothing more grievous than the sacrilege of schism….there can be no just necessity for destroying the unity of the Church” (S. Augustinus, Contra Epistolam Parmeniani, lib. ii., cap. ii., n. 25).


    (. . .)


    59. What We have said concerning the “mystical Head” would indeed be incomplete if We were not at least briefly to touch on this saying of the same Apostle: “Christ is the Head of the Church: he is the Savior of his Body.” For in these words we have the final reason why the Body of the Church is given the name of Christ, namely, that Christ is the Divine Savior of this Body. The Samaritans were right in proclaiming Him “Savior of the world”; for indeed He most certainly is to be called the “Savior of all men,” even though we must add with Paul: “especially of the faithful, since, before all others, He has purchased with His Blood His members who constitute the Church.



    St. Thomas Aquinas

    Summa Thelogica
    First Part
    Question 21.
    Article 1.

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5021.htm#article1


    Quote
    I answer that, When a man enters the Church by Baptism, he is admitted to two things, viz. the body of the faithful and the participation of the sacraments: and this latter presupposes the former, since the faithful are united together in the participation of the sacraments.



    St. Ambrose

    On Baptism:  A Catechetical Instruction

    http://www.lectionarycentral.com/trinity12/Ambrose.html

    Quote
    1.

    (. . .)


    I shall now begin to instruct you on the sacrament you have received; of whose nature it was not fitting to speak to you before this: for in the Christian what comes first is faith.  And at Rome for this reason those who have been baptized are called the faithful (fideles).
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #169 on: June 02, 2018, 06:59:05 PM »
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  • If BODers want to be taken seriously they should stop taking theologians speculating on the salvation of Catechumens as proof of modernist BOD. They're two completely different beasts. Catechumens still believe in the Catholic faith and have every intention and desire of being baptised as soon as possible. Many, but certainly not all, said Catechumens might be saved(although and many spoke against it too). But that does in no way mean that non-Catholics with no desire for Baptism are somehow saved based off a belief in a "God that rewards" as Francis termed it. There is no basis for that, and it's a blatant denial of EENS. 


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #170 on: June 04, 2018, 07:51:36 AM »
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  • If BODers want to be taken seriously they should stop taking theologians speculating on the salvation of Catechumens as proof of modernist BOD. They're two completely different beasts. Catechumens still believe in the Catholic faith and have every intention and desire of being baptised as soon as possible. Many, but certainly not all, said Catechumens might be saved(although and many spoke against it too). But that does in no way mean that non-Catholics with no desire for Baptism are somehow saved based off a belief in a "God that rewards" as Francis termed it. There is no basis for that, and it's a blatant denial of EENS.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/dogmatic-decrees-we-will-interpret-them-to-our-desires/

    Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires

    St. Augustine:   “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

    Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by BODers who in the end are all teaching that Jҽωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy.


    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jҽωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ[/b], unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” [/color](pagans and Jҽωs can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)


    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a God that rewards)

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
    “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a God that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)

    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
    “… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a God that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it,  their belief in a god that rewards)

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
    “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a God that rewards)

    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
    “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” ( Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)

    Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

    Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

    Council of Trent, Session VI  (Jan. 13, 1547)
    Decree on Justification,
    Chapter IV.

    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire implicit desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)

    Chapter VII.

    What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

    This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

    Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)



    Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)



    Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
    On Baptism

    Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)


    Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)


    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is  belief in a god that rewards)

    Pope Pius XII, mєdιαtor Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
    way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
    Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who[/size]
    have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
    consequently are not members of Christ
    orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
    have not received this consecration.” ( person who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)


    (Oh, I forgot, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above, invincible ignorance. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invinble ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #171 on: June 04, 2018, 10:58:40 AM »
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  • Again, Saint Thomas Aquinas is very clear about "Whether a Man Can Be Saved without Baptism?"
    Quote
    "I answer that, The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wish to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacraments, in regard to those who have the use of free-will.  Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
    Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.  Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

    Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, on The Sacraments, Question 68 - Of Those Who Receive Baptism, Second Article
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #172 on: June 04, 2018, 11:07:21 AM »
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  • And again, Canon Law is also very clear on the topic
    Quote
    CAN. 737.
    § 1. Baptismus, Sacramentorum ianua ac fundamentum, omnibus in re vel saltem in voto necessarius ad salutem, valide non confertur, nisi per ablutionem aquae verae et naturalis cum praescripta verborum forma.
    § 2. Cum ministratur servatis omnibus ritibus et caeremoniis quae in ritualibus libris praecipiuntur, appellatur sollemnis; secus, non sollemnis seu privutus.
    Quote
    "632. Baptism - the door and foundation of all other Sacraments, the Sacrament which, if we are to attain salvation, must be either actually received or at least desired - is given validly only by ablution with truly natural water and the pronouncing of the prescribed form of words.  Baptism administered with the observance of all the rites and ceremonies prescribed in the ritual is called solemn; otherwise it is called not solemn, or private (Canon 737)."
    A PRACTICAL COMMENTARY ON THE COSE OF CANON LAW, by Rev. Stanislaus Woywod, O.F.M., LL.B.
    Quote
    "Baptism is called the gate to, and the foundation of, the other Sacraments, because without it no other Sacrament can be validly received.  The Church has ever taught that Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, - either really or by desire - and that consequently no other sacrament can be validly received without it.  Thus ordination would be invalid and imprint no indelible character if the ordinandus had not been baptized.  This necessity of Baptism is called necessitas medii, necessity of means, because without it salvation cannot be obtained.  The reason for this absolute necessity lies in the words of Our Lord, John III, 5.  Either in re or in voto signifies that the baptismus fluminis or flaminis or sanguinis is sufficient."
    A COMMENTARY ON CANON LAW, VOLUME FOUR, by The Rev. P. Chas. Augustine, O.S.B, D.D.





    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #173 on: June 04, 2018, 11:15:43 AM »
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  • And again, of course, the Council of Trent clearly addressed this topic.
    Quote
    Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
        "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

    Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
        "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #174 on: June 04, 2018, 11:28:53 AM »
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  • And again, of course, the Council of Trent clearly addressed this topic.

    And of course you distort and misinterpret Trent to suit your agenda.
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #175 on: June 04, 2018, 11:57:36 AM »
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  • And again, of course, the Council of Trent clearly addressed this topic.
    Quote
    Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
        "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and
    [if anyone shall say] that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

    Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
        "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
    In your first quote, you will find that; 1) the sacraments are necessary for salvation and 2) if you say without the sacrament or the desire for it, through faith alone men obtain the grace of justification, you're anathema.

    In your second quote, the key word/subject matter you need to hone in on, is justification.

    In either case, these quotes both confirm that the sacrament is necessary for salvation.
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #176 on: June 04, 2018, 01:10:34 PM »
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  • And of course you distort and misinterpret Trent to suit your agenda.
    My only agenda is to follow the Church's teaching on the topic.

    It is odd you say that I distort and misinterpret, because I have been providing authoritative references, whereas you have only provided your own opinions on the topic.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #177 on: June 04, 2018, 01:14:56 PM »
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  • In your first quote, you will find that; 1) the sacraments are necessary for salvation and 2) if you say without the sacrament or the desire for it, through faith alone men obtain the grace of justification, you're anathema.

    In your second quote, the key word/subject matter you need to hone in on, is justification.

    In either case, these quotes both confirm that the sacrament is necessary for salvation.
    For myself, the safer position is to conform with the explanation of Saint Thomas Aquinas on this topic.  I fully understand you disagree with Saint Thomas Aquinas.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #178 on: June 04, 2018, 01:21:37 PM »
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  • For myself, the safer position is to conform with the explanation of Saint Thomas Aquinas on this topic.  I fully understand you disagree with Saint Thomas Aquinas.
    Then now that you see that the Church (Trent) in no way taught salvation via a BOD, you should never again quote from Trent as if they taught a BOD.

    Can we at least agree on that?
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #179 on: June 04, 2018, 01:50:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    Quote
    Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
        "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

    Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
        "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

    Regarding Baptism and Justification, the Council of Trent clearly mentions a) reception of the sacrament, or b) a desire for it.

    a) sacramental baptism
    b) a baptism of desire
    Omnes pro Christo


     

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