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Author Topic: Decision Time BODers, no more Grays  (Read 4783 times)

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Offline MyrnaM

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Decision Time BODers, no more Grays
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2014, 05:52:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote from: You know who
    The catechism snip makes no mention of death *or* salvation.

    Neither do the stubs in my cheque book. So what?

    Quote
    The catechism does not reward salvation via a BOD.

    Of course the catechism does not reward salvation. That is God's prerogative!
    And it is only obtained, if at all, after the Judgement.

    Quote
    The catechism does not even promise them grace and righteousness.

    So what is meant by “satis futura sit ad gratiam et iustitiam”?

    Quote
    The "unforeseen accident" can easily be that the priest who was supposed to administer the sacrament that day was hit by a car.

    Two can play this silly game. There were no cars around when the Catechism was written!

    -------------------------

    OK. Now let's get serious.
    Let’s recap what the Catechism actually says at this point:

    Neque enim ea dilatio periculum, quod quidem pueris imminere supra dictum est, coniunctum habet; cuм illis, qui rationis usu praediti sunt, baptismi suscipiendi propositum atque consilium, et male actae vitae poenitentia satis futura sit ad gratiam et iustitiam, si repentinus aliquis casus impediat, quo minus salutari aqua ablui possint.

    Which translates to:

    Nor, in fact, does that delay hold the associated danger, which was said above to be certainly imminent for children, since, for those who are endowed with the use of reason, the intention as well as the resolution of receiving baptism, and repentance for a life badly spent, would be sufficient for the grace and the righteousness, if some sudden accident should impede them from being able to be washed in the water of salvation.

    ad gratiam et iustitiam = for the grace and the righteousness
    ie: for justification; that is to say, the end for which the sacrament of Baptism is the ordinary means.  

    The Catechism asserts that, for adults, the reception of the sacrament of Baptism does not have the same urgency as it does for infants.

    This is because the candidate’s right disposition (use of reason, repentance, and intention to be baptised) would be sufficient to secure for him the grace of justification, in the event of his intention being permanently impeded.

    Comparison of the two cases (infant baptism v. adult baptism) indicates that the reassurance inherent in the text, would take effect in the event of the candidate dying before receiving the sacrament.



    Carry on, and good luck, Sunbeam!
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline bowler

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    Decision Time BODers, no more Grays
    « Reply #46 on: March 14, 2014, 07:10:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Let’s recap what the Catechism actually says at this point:


    To the BODer the Catechism of Trent's obscure line of "avail them to grace and righteousness" (the only line in the entire catechism that they could quote) means that BOD is "a dogma", and should be read as such. On the other hand, with regard to BOD, the rest of the catechism should not be understood as it is clearly written!

    Moreover, the BODers teach that, ALL the clear dogmas on EENS and the sacraments of baptism SHOULD NOT be understood as they are written. (see "Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written",  http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Quotes-that-BODers-Say-Must-Not-be-Understood-as-Written )

    Quote from: bowler
    To the Heroin BODer, EVERY SINGLE clear dogmatic decree below does not mean what they say. (remember that a Heroin BODer believes that  someone can be saved who has no belief in Christ and the Trinity, nor has any explicit desire to be baptized, or to be a Catholic.)  
     




    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
    “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
    “Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
    “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”
     
    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
    “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

    Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

    Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”[/color]

    Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
    On Baptism

    Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.

    Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema

    Council of Trent, Session VI  Decree on Justification,
    Chapter IV.

    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).

    Chapter VII.

    What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

    This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

    Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;

    (Just in case anyone wants to refute what that quote above means, I quote below the same thing said at the Council of Florence:)

    Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

    ---------------------------------

    The following quotations from many Popes are reaffirmations of the dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation.  These teachings of the Popes are part of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium – and are therefore infallible – since they reiterate the teaching of the Chair of St. Peter on the Catholic dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation.
     
    Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio, 590-604:
    “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.”

    Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:
    “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

    Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351:
    “In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”

    Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:
    “It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

    Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: “We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation.  In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation.”

    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832:  “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever.  They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him.  Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”

    Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
    “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.

    Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”

    Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics).”

    Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 - Proposition 16: “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.” – Condemned

    Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi futura prospicientibus (# 7), Nov. 1, 1900:  “Christ is man’s ‘Way’; the Church also is his ‘Way’… Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain.”

    Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904: “Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation…”

    Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: “The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society.  Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station and office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation.”

    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928:  “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship.  This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.”


    [


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Decision Time BODers, no more Grays
    « Reply #47 on: March 14, 2014, 08:03:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Carry on, and good luck, Sunbeam!


     :rahrah: :rahrah: :rahrah:

    Offline Alcuin

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    Decision Time BODers, no more Grays
    « Reply #48 on: March 14, 2014, 11:04:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Carry on, and good luck, Sunbeam!


     :rahrah: :rahrah: :rahrah:


    She clearly hates the dogma.

    Saint Patrick, pray for us.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Decision Time BODers, no more Grays
    « Reply #49 on: March 14, 2014, 11:05:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam


    OK. Now let's get serious.
    Let’s recap what the Catechism actually says at this point:

    Neque enim ea dilatio periculum, quod quidem pueris imminere supra dictum est, coniunctum habet; cuм illis, qui rationis usu praediti sunt, baptismi suscipiendi propositum atque consilium, et male actae vitae poenitentia satis futura sit ad gratiam et iustitiam, si repentinus aliquis casus impediat, quo minus salutari aqua ablui possint.

    Which translates to:

    Nor, in fact, does that delay hold the associated danger, which was said above to be certainly imminent for children, since, for those who are endowed with the use of reason, the intention as well as the resolution of receiving baptism, and repentance for a life badly spent, would be sufficient for the grace and the righteousness, if some sudden accident should impede them from being able to be washed in the water of salvation.

    ad gratiam et iustitiam = for the grace and the righteousness
    ie: for justification; that is to say, the end for which the sacrament of Baptism is the ordinary means.  

    The Catechism asserts that, for adults, the reception of the sacrament of Baptism does not have the same urgency as it does for infants.

    This is because the candidate’s right disposition (use of reason, repentance, and intention to be baptised) would be sufficient to secure for him the grace of justification, in the event of his intention being permanently impeded.



    You must first accept the fact that the catechism is teaching all about the necessity of receiving the sacrament worthily, it is not teaching all about the desire for receiving it as being in any way equal to reception of the sacrament itself. Remember, this catechism is echoing the teachings from Council of Trent.

    If you can keep your line of reasoning focused on the fact that it is strictly  teaching about the necessity of the sacrament, you will not be able to take anything out of context as you do now.

    Start a few paragraphs prior in the same catechism and you will find it teaches:
    Quote

    Necessity of Baptism
    If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that the law of Baptism, as established by our Lord, extends to all, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction. Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    Pay special attention to the above paragraph. There is no need to interpret it, simply read it as it was written and you will understand the teaching they are trying to convey.

    As the heading states, it is teaching about the necessity of the sacrament, not a desire for it being equal to the sacrament. Note it teaches that the law of baptism extends to all - according to the words of Our Lord in John 3:5. No hidden or alternate meaning and no exceptions, no one can possibly be honest and say that John 3:5 does not mean exactly what it says, namely, unless we are baptized, we will go to hell - that is what "eternal misery and destruction" means. That's why they said "eternal" misery.

    It then goes on to reaffirm the necessity of the sacrament in infants:
    Quote

    Infant Baptism: It's Necessity
    That this law extends not only to adults but also to infants and children, and that the Church has received this from Apostolic tradition, is confirmed by the unanimous teaching and authority of the Fathers.


    This partial snip confirms that the sacrament is a necessity for not only all adults, but also for all infants ...."is confirmed by the unanimous teaching and authority of the Fathers."

    Again, simply read the teaching as it is written, then accept the teaching for what it says. When you do this, you will find it is teaching that the sacrament is a necessity - no other interpretation is possible.

    Quote

    Baptism Of Adults
    With regard to those of adult age who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, namely, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out that a different manner of proceeding should be followed. To them the Christian faith is to be proposed; and they are earnestly to be exhorted, persuaded and invited to embrace it.


    *Now* they start to teach about *the necessity of the desire* for the sacrament in adults - something an infant is incapable of. As such, for those adults who were never baptized as infants, they are not to be baptized as an infant would be baptized for the simple reason that adults can; 1) refuse the sacrament altogether, 2) receive the sacrament unworthily, i.e. because the fiancee demands it or for an inheritance or for some other such purely selfish motive.

    Bottom line is that the adult to be baptized needs to honestly desire to be baptized.

    Quote

    They Should Not Delay Their Baptism Unduly
    If converted to the Lord God, they are then to be admonished not to defer the Sacrament of Baptism beyond the time prescribed by the Church. For since it is written, delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day, they are to be taught that in their regard perfect conversion consists in regeneration by Baptism. Besides, the longer they defer Baptism, the longer are they deprived of the use and graces of the other Sacraments, by which the Christian religion is practised, since the other Sacraments are accessible through Baptism only.
    They are also deprived of the abundant fruits of Baptism, the waters of which not only wash away all the stains and defilements of past sins, but also enrich us with divine grace which enables us to avoid sin for the future and preserve righteousness and innocence, which constitute the sum of a Christian life, as all can easily understand.


    Here again, Trent is explaining that adults need to be baptized and why it should be done without undue delay. Note all the graces and fruits they who are not baptized are deprived of.

    Up to this point we can easily see that Trent is teaching about the necessity of the sacrament - and if you were to go back further than just the few paragraphs I posted, you would see this necessity is taught from the beginning over and over again. The same thing is true if you were to continue reading, over and over again Trent is teaching about the necessity of the sacrament.


    NOW, if you accept the fact that up to this point, Trent has taught over and over again about why the sacrament is an absolute necessity, you will understand the teaching below has not in anyway changed from what Trent has taught up to this point.


    Quote

    Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once
    On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.
    Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.
    Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the Sacrament.


    Not only is this delay to receive the sacrament mandatory to a certain extent, ( for the purpose of preparatory education and entrance into the Church for the adult ), it teaches the reasons why this delay is advantageous - this delay can help be the cause for the adult to have an even greater desire to receive the sacrament then if there were no delay or an insufficient delay - in a word, call it, anticipation.

    THAT is what "their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." is about.

    "their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, is a necessary requirement for the adult who is about to receive the sacrament - and yes, this requirement will, as Trent teaches, avail them to sanctifying grace, but Trent does not teach that this requirement for the worthy reception of the sacrament will put them in the state of sanctifying grace without the sacrament, nor does Trent teach that this requirement for the worthy reception of the sacrament rewards the adult salvation.


    But to the BODer, they somehow are able to ignore or completely reject  all the  teachings that repeat over and over again about the necessity of the sacrament that they just got done reading, including the explicit teaching that  state whoever does not get baptized will suffer "eternal misery and destruction" - which was under the heading named: Necessity of Baptism!



    Quote from: Sunbeam


    Comparison of the two cases (infant baptism v. adult baptism) indicates that the reassurance inherent in the text, would take effect in the event of the candidate dying before receiving the sacrament.



    The Doctrine of Divine Providence teaches that one who sincerely desires to be baptized in order to become a Catholic, a child of God and an heir to heaven, will be baptized with water before they die. Whoever cannot accept that, has very weak or no faith at all.

    7 Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.
    8 *For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.
    9 Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone?
    10 Or if he shall ask a fish, will he reach him a serpent?
    11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father, who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?


    * 8. Whatever we ask necessary to salvation with humility, fervour, perseverance, and other due circuмstances, we may be assured God will grant when it is best for us. If we do not obtain what we pray for, we must suppose it is not conducive to our salvation, in comparison of which all else is of little moment. (Haydock)

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse