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Author Topic: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles  (Read 6002 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2020, 04:38:10 PM »
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    • Quote
    Basically what is meant by the promulgation of the Gospel throughout the world is that it spread outside Israel
    As an example, God used St Peter’s miraculous speech on the 1st Pentecost to reach 100s of different people, from all different tongues, from all different parts of the world.  Thus, there were many 1,000s who were baptized that day and ALL of them went back to their homelands and spread the Faith.  They were mini-disciples and helped to promulgate the Faith. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #16 on: February 22, 2020, 04:47:16 PM »
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    • Quote
    along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
    Implicit desire just means they have a desire to get baptized but they haven’t openly told anyone (ie made it explicit).  
    .
    It does NOT mean that a sorrow for sins includes a desire for baptism.  That’s heresy. 
    .
    Thus, those who are ignorant of the Faith cannot have an implicit desire for baptism.  You can’t desire what you don’t know exists.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #17 on: February 22, 2020, 05:16:03 PM »
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    • Implicit Desire could be anything, depending on which BoDer you ask.

    Explicit Desire:  "I want to be baptized."
    Implicit Desire 1:  "I want to be a Catholic." without explicitly wanting Baptism.
    Implicit Desire 2:  "I want to do whatever God wants." Implicitly to become Catholic, implicitly to be Baptized.
    Implicit Desire 3:  "I am sincerely seeking truth." Implicit to find God, implicit to do what God wants, implicit to be Catholic, implicit to be Baptized.

    Lots of BoDers cling to Implicit 3 ... which reduces Church EENS dogma to nonsense.

    Also, the BoDers keep hiding behind implicit desire for Baptism.  What we're talking about is whether implicit FAITH is possible.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #18 on: February 22, 2020, 05:19:56 PM »
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    • Both implicit desire 2 and 3 are heresy, yet most Trads believe such because they’ve listened to too many Modernists. They hear/read St Alphonsus use the word “implicit” and they think that Karl Rhaner’s use of it is ok.  In fact, St Alphonsus would condemn most all BOD theories today as heresy, but the number of variations of it are so numerous that it’s impossible list. 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #19 on: February 22, 2020, 06:59:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 22, 2020, 09:49:55 AM
    Anyone get a chance to read?
    Yes, I read it. It is all there, what 99% of so-called BODers believe, but will rarely admit. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #20 on: February 22, 2020, 08:24:08 PM »
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    • Stanley and Byzcat - let's get back on topic.  Do you agree/disagree with Cardinal Dulles’ conclusion?  Please explain.  
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #21 on: February 22, 2020, 09:38:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 22, 2020, 05:16:03 PM
    Implicit Desire could be anything, depending on which BoDer you ask.

    Explicit Desire:  "I want to be baptized."
    Implicit Desire 1:  "I want to be a Catholic." without explicitly wanting Baptism.
    Implicit Desire 2:  "I want to do whatever God wants." Implicitly to become Catholic, implicitly to be Baptized.
    Implicit Desire 3:  "I am sincerely seeking truth." Implicit to find God, implicit to do what God wants, implicit to be Catholic, implicit to be Baptized.

    Lots of BoDers cling to Implicit 3 ... which reduces Church EENS dogma to nonsense.

    Also, the BoDers keep hiding behind implicit desire for Baptism.  What we're talking about is whether implicit FAITH is possible.
    I doubt any trads go past two 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #22 on: February 22, 2020, 11:03:34 PM »
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    • #2 is still heresy though, it’s just not full-blown, modernist, V2 style heresy of #3.  #2 is the sentimental-good-willed-native arguments of the 1600s.  While #3 is an outright denial of EENS, #2 is more of a watering down of the doctrine.  Either way, both are still heresy. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #23 on: February 23, 2020, 06:52:11 AM »
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    • This thread has given me much to think about.  

    Are the posters here (Lad, PV, etc) asserting that the Universal Ordinary Magisterium has been teaching heresy since the 16th century (vs Vatican II)? And if so, isn't that an assertion which translates into a defectible/defected Church?

    Added: PV, can you please post the link where the OP came from?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #24 on: February 23, 2020, 08:15:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 23, 2020, 06:52:11 AM
    This thread has given me much to think about.  

    Are the posters here (Lad, PV, etc) asserting that the Universal Ordinary Magisterium has been teaching heresy since the 16th century (vs Vatican II)? And if so, isn't that an assertion which translates into a defectible/defected Church?

    Added: PV, can you please post the link where the OP came from?

    No, 2V, this has not been taught by the Church at all.  In fact, the Church rejected "Rewarder God" theory.  Rewarder God theorists based their novelty on a distinction, as St. Alphonsus described, that explicit belief in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity are required for salvation only by "necessity of precept", i.e. it's only a command that you must keep if you know about it.  But in 1703 the Holy Office rejected this and stated that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary "by necessity of means", in other words, regardless of your sincerity, if you do not EXPLICITLY believe these core things, you cannot have supernatural faith.  That squarely rejects Rewarder God theory.

    Remember that we're not talking about Baptism of Desire, per se.  BoD is a distraction from the core issue.  What's at issue is what is necessary to believe in order to be able to have supernatural faith.  St. Thomas Aquinas, as Dulles explains, taught that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are in fact required.  Even in the early 1960s Msgr. Fenton pointed out that it was still the majority opinion.

    There have been posters here on CI who believed in BoD with whom I had zero problems.  I don't care if someone wants to believe in a Thomistic Baptism of Desire.  Who am I to denounce someone who wants to follow St. Thomas?  What I have problems with is what reduces to "Anonymous Christianity".  THIS is what allows the Modernists to expand the Church to include all manner of non-Catholics, and all the Vatican II errors derive directly from from this ecclesiology.  If I believed that people who do not have Catholic faith can be saved, then I'm going right back to the Conciliar Church and abjuring my schism.  There's no alternative.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #25 on: February 23, 2020, 08:17:51 AM »
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    • Here's Karl Rahner also admitting the teaching of the Church Fathers (acknowledging the same thing that Dulles did):

    Quote
    “. . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.” (Rahner, Karl, Theological Investigations, Volume II, Man in the Church, translated by Karl H. Kruger, pp.40, 41, 57)
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #26 on: February 23, 2020, 08:18:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 22, 2020, 09:38:43 PM
    I doubt any trads go past two

    You'd be surprised.  I've run into a few of those.
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    Offline ralgul

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #27 on: February 23, 2020, 08:28:04 AM »
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    • BODers and Rewarder God Theorists violate the First Commandment.

    Vatican II violates the First Commandment.

    God will rain down fire on the Novus Ordo Sect.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #28 on: February 23, 2020, 08:47:09 AM »
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    • Lad, thanks for your reply. I will be travelling today, so I probably won't have an opportunity to really digest it until at least later tonight.

    However, your first comment that the Church never taught this, how is that so if we have catechisms that teach it?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Who Can be Saved? By Card Avery Dulles
    « Reply #29 on: February 23, 2020, 08:54:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 23, 2020, 08:47:09 AM
    Lad, thanks for your reply. I will be travelling today, so I probably won't have an opportunity to really digest it until at least later tonight.

    However, your first comment that the Church never taught this, how is that so if we have catechisms that teach it?

    What is it that you believe the Catechisms teach?  Some do imply the possibility of salvation by Baptism of Desire.  But that is not the same thing that we're discussing.  As I said, Catechisms are not infallible.  Some Catechisms prior to Vatican I rejected the notion of papal infallibility (in an attempt to appeal to Protestants); these had to be changed after Vatican I.  I think it's a huge mistake to think that Catechisms hold effectively the same weight as, say, a solemn dogmatic teaching, like at Vatican I.  Those who imply the infallibility of Catechisms are effectively saying exactly that.  I think that there are many people who misunderstand the Ordinary UNIVERSAL Magisterium.  Just because something has become a common opinion doesn't make it right.  For about 700 years every single theologian taught that infants who die without Baptism suffered in hell.  This was eventually rejected by the Church.

    And sometimes the Church tolerates things, including things that might be wrong.  Take, for instance, the controversy between the Thomists and the Molinists.  Both of these cannot be right, and at least one of them must be wrong.  But the Church explicitly decided that both opinions are to be tolerated.  So, then, the Church is likely tolerating an error here.
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