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Author Topic: 3 Principles on BOD  (Read 1796 times)

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Offline Banezian

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3 Principles on BOD
« on: May 11, 2020, 05:53:30 PM »
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    • After much reading and  thought on the question, it seems to me that most on here talk past each other on BOD threads, My position on BOD is really simple

    1. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church( all who die objectively outside the Church are damned)
    2. All who are saved are saved as Catholics( no one who dies objectively a Prot or Jew, etc is saved )
    3. If one lives a good life in accordance with the natural law( holding at least to belief in God and that He rewards and punishes- falling  into no formal heresy) but is not united to the Church through no fault of his own God will certainly give them a chance for explicit Faith and unity with the Church before or at the moment of death.( Christ died for all, and it is generally taught by theologians that sufficient grace for salvation is offered to all. EENS is also a dogma. It follows then, as St. Thomas teaches that God will give all in ignorance who live good lives in accordance with the natural law a chance at explicit Faith before death- no one is condemned without being at fault)

    This is the position of Fr. Michael Muller. Why can’t we unite around these principles, quit bickering, and leave the rest to God?

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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Matto

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    Re: 3 Principles on BOD
    « Reply #1 on: May 11, 2020, 06:21:56 PM »
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    • I agree with what you believe. People get push-back for believing in number 2. even when belief in 3. is expressed.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: 3 Principles on BOD
    « Reply #2 on: May 12, 2020, 12:45:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on May 11, 2020, 05:53:30 PM
    After much reading and  thought on the question, it seems to me that most on here talk past each other on BOD threads, My position on BOD is really simple

    1. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church( all who die objectively outside the Church are damned)
    2. All who are saved are saved as Catholics( no one who dies objectively a Prot or Jew, etc is saved )
    3. If one lives a good life in accordance with the natural law( holding at least to belief in God and that He rewards and punishes- falling  into no formal heresy) but is not united to the Church through no fault of his own God will certainly give them a chance for explicit Faith and unity with the Church before or at the moment of death.( Christ died for all, and it is generally taught by theologians that sufficient grace for salvation is offered to all. EENS is also a dogma. It follows then, as St. Thomas teaches that God will give all in ignorance who live good lives in accordance with the natural law a chance at explicit Faith before death- no one is condemned without being at fault)

    This is the position of Fr. Michael Muller. Why can’t we unite around these principles, quit bickering, and leave the rest to God?

    Quote
    [...] God will certainly give them a chance for explicit Faith and unity with the Church before or at the moment of death [...]

    You agree with Fr. Feeney then.   His argument was always that God's providence would provide for conversion before death.


    ..
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    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: 3 Principles on BOD
    « Reply #3 on: May 12, 2020, 05:52:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on May 11, 2020, 05:53:30 PM
    After much reading and  thought on the question, it seems to me that most on here talk past each other on BOD threads, My position on BOD is really simple

    1. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church( all who die objectively outside the Church are damned)
    2. All who are saved are saved as Catholics( no one who dies objectively a Prot or Jew, etc is saved )
    3. If one lives a good life in accordance with the natural law( holding at least to belief in God and that He rewards and punishes- falling  into no formal heresy) but is not united to the Church through no fault of his own God will certainly give them a chance for explicit Faith and unity with the Church before or at the moment of death.( Christ died for all, and it is generally taught by theologians that sufficient grace for salvation is offered to all. EENS is also a dogma. It follows then, as St. Thomas teaches that God will give all in ignorance who live good lives in accordance with the natural law a chance at explicit Faith before death- no one is condemned without being at fault)

    This is the position of Fr. Michael Muller. Why can’t we unite around these principles, quit bickering, and leave the rest to God?
    I do not believe this is the position of Fr. Muller, who quoting St. Thomas wrote:
    "The natural law is imperfect. Hence a divine law is absolutely necessary to direct us in the way of eternal beatitude. We cannot attain to a supernatural end by natural or human means. We need a divine law to direct our thoughts and actions towards that end. The judgment of men is inconsistent and changeable. They need an infallible law to direct and rectify their judgment, in order to know with certainty what they must do and avoid in order to obtain everlasting happiness. So, Almighty God added to the natural law a higher law, relating to a higher end, in the form of the Mosaic and evangelical law."

    The problem is with #3. Certainly #1 and #2 it is self evident that inclusive in those statements is the sacrament of baptism.

    For #3 however, I contend that there is no such a person who lives a good life in accordance with the natural law and is at the same time, not united to the Church through no fault of his own.

    Certainly throughout his life, God would have offered the graces to enter the Church to that person, of this we are certain. But who can possibly believe that a person who lived his whole life rejecting grace, will no longer depend on the natural law and instead, accept the divine inspiration and the very same graces he rejected his whole life at the point of death, and on that account attain salvation without even receiving the sacrament of baptism? This idea is at best, nothing but pure liberal speculation.
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: 3 Principles on BOD
    « Reply #4 on: May 12, 2020, 05:56:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: donkath on May 12, 2020, 12:45:35 AM
    You agree with Fr. Feeney then.   His argument was always that God's providence would provide for conversion before death.


    ..
    Not quite, Fr. Feeney insisted that before death, a non-baptized person that was already in the state of justification would receive the sacrament of baptism before death:

    "There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics. The clear truths of salvation, I am preaching to you".
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline donkath

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    Re: 3 Principles on BOD
    « Reply #5 on: May 12, 2020, 07:54:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 12, 2020, 05:56:18 AM
    Not quite, Fr. Feeney insisted that before death, a non-baptized person that was already in the state of justification would receive the sacrament of baptism before death:

    "There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics. The clear truths of salvation, I am preaching to you".

    Quote
    Not quite, Fr. Feeney insisted that before death, a non-baptized person that was already in the state of justification would receive the sacrament of baptism before death:
    Of course!  Thank you for correction.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: 3 Principles on BOD
    « Reply #6 on: May 12, 2020, 08:53:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on May 11, 2020, 05:53:30 PM
    After much reading and  thought on the question, it seems to me that most on here talk past each other on BOD threads, My position on BOD is really simple

    1. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church( all who die objectively outside the Church are damned)
    2. All who are saved are saved as Catholics( no one who dies objectively a Prot or Jew, etc is saved )
    3. If one lives a good life in accordance with the natural law( holding at least to belief in God and that He rewards and punishes- falling  into no formal heresy) but is not united to the Church through no fault of his own God will certainly give them a chance for explicit Faith and unity with the Church before or at the moment of death.( Christ died for all, and it is generally taught by theologians that sufficient grace for salvation is offered to all. EENS is also a dogma. It follows then, as St. Thomas teaches that God will give all in ignorance who live good lives in accordance with the natural law a chance at explicit Faith before death- no one is condemned without being at fault)

    This is the position of Fr. Michael Muller. Why can’t we unite around these principles, quit bickering, and leave the rest to God?

    This is the little secret about Feeneyism.  No true "Feeneyite" has any problem with what you just articulated here.  It's a perfectly Catholic position.  Baptism of Desire has always been a side-show and is not the core issue.  What's at issue is whether someone can be an "Anonymous Catholic," somehow be a Catholic without explicit faith in the central mysteries of the faith.  That is a novelty, a Jesuit innovation, which began to appear in the late 1500s for the first time in the history of Catholic doctrine and theology.  And it is what led very clearly and directly to all the errors of Vatican II.

    Don't let any of the pro-BoDers fool you into believing that they actually care about BoD.  What they do is to leverage BoD into a weapon to undermine broader EENS dogma.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: 3 Principles on BOD
    « Reply #7 on: May 12, 2020, 09:17:43 AM »
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    • Quote
    3. If one lives a good life in accordance with the natural law( holding at least to belief in God and that He rewards and punishes- falling  into no formal heresy) but is not united to the Church through no fault of his own God will certainly give them a chance for explicit Faith and unity with the Church before or at the moment of death.( Christ died for all, and it is generally taught by theologians that sufficient grace for salvation is offered to all. EENS is also a dogma. It follows then, as St. Thomas teaches that God will give all in ignorance who live good lives in accordance with the natural law a chance at explicit Faith before death- no one is condemned without being at fault)
    Theoretically, you are correct here.  However, as Ladisalus said, most people don't believe the above strictly, because they know that the # of people who live according to the natural law is very, very low.  How many Catholics have trouble following the natural law, and they have many more graces!  It certainly is possible for a non-Catholic to live according to the natural law but the odds are low.
    .
    Because we are all weak sinners, and because non-catholics have lower odds of staying in the state grace, is why Modernists have sought to water-down your above truth since the 1700s.  They want to apply salvation to "sincere protestants" and others of "good will" while ignoring the FIRST requirement of living according to the natural law.  As Fr Feeney called this error, "Sentimental Theology", because it seeks to save many people, not based on Christ's doctrines but based on emotion.  This is where heresy enters the conversation - that "sincerity"  suffices for rejecting the natural law.  And if you reject the natural law, then God is not obliged to give the graces of the Faith (though He still does, in certain cases, in His infinite wisdom and mercy).
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