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Poll

Do You Believe It Likely That Siri Was Ever Pope

No
He was elected but never accepted the office
Yes, for a few minutes until a couple of weeks
Yes, until he went along with tthe Novus Ordo changes
Yes, until his death

Author Topic: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?  (Read 5628 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2019, 03:12:11 PM »
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  • White smoke only happens after a Pope is elected, accepts the office and chooses a name. That happened in 1958 and then the white smoke turned black after quite a while- 20 minutes or so.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #16 on: December 05, 2019, 03:41:48 PM »
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  • There is of course a grey area here.  The difficulty is that the heresies that are flourishing today were apparently promulgated by the very rule of Faith that we must adhere to.  Now pertinacity is a willful rebellion against the rule of Faith.  So we have a unique situation here and I would agree that you can't accuse every single bishop in 1966 of the sin of heresy simply for assenting to Vatican 2.  

    OK, so now you're actually agreeing with my original point ... after disagreeing with it just because you don't like me.  If what you just posted is true, then the mere acceptance of Vatican II does not suffice to convict Cardinal Siri of heresy.  At no point was anything quoted from Cardinal Siri to suggest that he even held any heretical propositions, much less pertinaciously adhered to them.

    In fact, Cardinal Siri famously called Vatican II the "greatest mistake in history."  So that doesn't sound like he's adhering to any of its errors.

    So, again, material heresy is not at all unlikely in the Novus Ordo.  I know many Novus Ordo Catholics who still profess the Catholic faith and hold out the Catholic Magisterium as their rule of faith, but they may be in material error regarding some points ... but only because they THINK it is taught by the Church.  You see, that is the definition of formal (vs. material) heresy, rejecting, even implicitly, the Catholic Magisterium as the rule of faith.  It's only tangentially related to "sincerity".  So, for instance, a Lutheran does NOT hold the correct rule of faith.  He may be sincere, and therefore God will not punish him for that particular sin (as St. Thomas teaches), but faith can be lacking by mere absence.  Now, implicit formal heresy happens when someone rejects a dogmatic teaching of the Church even while knowing that it is in fact the Church's teaching,

    Besides that, if you hold that Lutherans can be saved and be within the Church, then you yourself adhere to Vatican II ecclesiology, since you now hold a conception of the Church that includes not only Catholics ... but Lutherns and other heretics and even infidels.  That is precisely the V2 ecclesiology in a nutshell.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #17 on: December 05, 2019, 03:52:25 PM »
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  • The main point of my article, people of good will, is that it was suggested on a podcast the Siri had a divine revelation to go along with what the Church enemies wanted him to do and stay quiet so God could see which side everyone was on.

    Well, if that is the main point (and this was not evident to me, since it was just a few paragraphs in the middle), then I don't disagree.  It's based on nothing but idle speculation on the part of whoever you were arguing with.  I don't believe Our Lord would command that ... though He Himself has chosen to be silent regarding the specifics of this crisis.  I believe that Our Lord took Padre Pio because if he had resisted Vatican II, then it would quickly have resolved the crisis, and God willed there to be a crisis.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #18 on: December 05, 2019, 04:24:05 PM »
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  • "The main point of my article, people of good will, is that it was suggested on a podcast the Siri had a divine revelation to go along with what the Church enemies wanted him to do and stay quiet so God could see which side everyone was on."


    I'm sure we are talking about the same podcast (ISOC) They were speculating about the divine revelation- never stated as fact. They never claimed this "revelation" happened or that Siri ever mentioned that it did. They were answering a question as to why didn't Siri just let the "Heaven's fall" no matter what and take the Papacy that was his, and not be 'cowed" by the threats. So they were just posing possible responses to the question, that was all. In fact Mr Giuffre states that we have no idea what Cardinal Siri was up against, and to insinuate that he reneged on his duty  would be based on ignorance and misinformation.. 

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #19 on: December 06, 2019, 04:51:28 AM »
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  • To suggest that God revealed to Siri, that he should shirk his duty to God and man as pope and be quiet about what the enemies of the Church are doing is evil.  God cannon inspire evil.  It is against divine law for this to be possible.  

    They don't have to make Siri a dry martyr for the theory to be true.  In my discussion with one they suggested he ever offered the new Mass.  Then changed the subject when I showed them proof.  

    The mantra of true Catholics is "death rather than sin" not "sin rather than death".
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #20 on: December 06, 2019, 07:48:46 AM »
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  • You are insisting that the interviewer and interviewee were speaking as fact when it was not so. It was just an idea that was floated for speculation. You are using this  false premise just to bolster your point. That is dishonest

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #21 on: December 06, 2019, 08:01:26 AM »
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  • You are insisting that the interviewer and interviewee were speaking as fact when it was not so. It was just an idea that was floated for speculation. You are using this  false premise just to bolster your point. That is dishonest
    When did I speak of them saying they insisted it happened?  I'm not going to re-read my article but if there is a quote that makes it seem like I did that I will recant.  Very gladly.  It seems like you are a Siri ideologue.  I'm sorry for bursting your precious bubble.  My problem is the mere suggestion that God can inspire one to do evil. This is impossible but the individual who I have talked to privately is refusing to accept that.  It is dishonest to treat the Siri thing like a dogma.  And misguided to believe he stayed Pope until he died.  And unimaginable, I would have thought, for Catholic to think it was better for him or even good of him to shirk his duty as pope before God an men rather than do what popes are supposed do.  Like for the first 3 centuries for instance.  And ever since when necessary. 

    Answer the question.  Can God inspire evil?  Be honest.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #22 on: December 06, 2019, 08:10:47 AM »
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  • You are insisting that the interviewer and interviewee were speaking as fact when it was not so. It was just an idea that was floated for speculation. You are using this  false premise just to bolster your point. That is dishonest
     :confused:
    I blatantly said they were suggesting.  Where did you come up with insist? :confused: :confused: 
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #23 on: December 06, 2019, 08:14:14 AM »
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  • You are insisting that the interviewer and interviewee were speaking as fact when it was not so. It was just an idea that was floated for speculation. You are using this  false premise just to bolster your point. That is dishonest
    I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I am very serious.  Is English your first language and are you fluent in it?  Do you know that the word "suggest" does not mean the same thing as "insist"?  I really want to know.  Of course if I said they "insisted" in the article I will recant.  I'm not one to twist perception and be deceptive to get people to agree with me.  That is never my intent anyway.  Sometimes I don't write as clearly as I should though.  I'll admit that.  In my efforts to make things more clear, I make things more complicated oftentimes. 
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #24 on: December 06, 2019, 09:38:17 AM »
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  • You are insisting that the interviewer and interviewee were speaking as fact when it was not so. It was just an idea that was floated for speculation. You are using this  false premise just to bolster your point. That is dishonest
    Here was the quote from the article:

    That is, her idea was that Siri could very well have had an apparition telling him “to go along with” what the Communistic Masonic Jєωs wanted him to go along with.

    Can you please explain where I insisted that the interviewer and interviewee were speaking as fact?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #25 on: December 06, 2019, 10:05:41 AM »
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  • You're just a dishonest person, LoT.  You claim the main point of your article was this idle speculation that Our Lord asked Siri to go along with everything.  But you only spent about 5 paragraphs in the middle of 40 on that particular question.  You made this false claim after your main point ... that Siri was a heretic ... was completely debunked.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #26 on: December 06, 2019, 10:40:50 AM »
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  • The main reasons I wrote the article were the heretical statement in the article that implied God could inspire evil and that many believe that Siri was pope until he died in 1989.  Other people can invent motives for me but they are nothing more than gossiping mongers.  'Til this day I have not seen a site that purports to be Catholic with so much vitriol and venom and incredible ignorance on it.  Admittedly by only a hand full of people who should not be able to participate on a Catholic site.  The part about Siri being a heretic, which he was, was an after thought that flowed into the writing.  We have plenty of R & R "Popes" who offer the NO why must we insist Siri was another one. 

    Can an objective good-willed person who doesn't hate me and seek to undermine me at every turn because I repeatedly made him look like the fool he is on the EENS issue enlighten my about this site that means not Ladislaus:

    https://www.betrayedcatholics.com/articles/a-catholics-course-of-study/traditionalist-heresies-and-errors/errors-in-matters-of-faith-and-morals/why-guiseppe-siri-was-never-pope/
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #27 on: December 06, 2019, 10:44:39 AM »
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  • Here is how priests have responded to the following questions:

    This is a theological question pertaining directly to the attributes of God that I wanted to ask you.  It is based upon a hypothetical supposition.  The supposition is that Cardinal Siri was elected and accepted office and then gotten out of the way as Pope so we could then have Roncalli.  Supposing this happened.

    Would it have been evil of Siri to go along with what the enemies of the Church wanted him to do, shirking his duty to God and the people to avoid potentially having the Vatican blown up and the loss of countless lives, and also to be quiet about it, (even apart from his signing the V2 docuмents, offering the NO and acknowledging the apostates as Vicar of Christ)?

    Is it possible that God could have revealed to Siri to go along with what the enemies of the Church wanted him to do and be quiet about the whole thing?

    Ultimately is it possible for God to willingly inspire through revelation or apparition a person to do evil? 

    The answer needs to be in regards to a hypothetic shirking of his duty to God and the Church as Pope at the intimidation of the Church’s enemies having occurred due to God’s inspiration. 

    To avoid any confusion or misunderstanding I will condense the question:

    Is it evil of a Pope to shirk his duty at the behest of the Church’s enemies?  If so, could God have willing inspired a Pope to do so?

    Response from Priest #1:
     
    God cannot be the author of evil.  St Thomas Moore and St John Fisher
     stood up to the enemies of the church.  At the same time there was alot of
     confusion and for one reason or another the enemies of the church may have
     been mistaken for the Church.  As far as the Siri theory it has been
     debunked.  It has been proven they had their facts mixed up and very poor
     translation of Italian and other problems- the theory does not stand up
     under scrutiny

     
    Response from Priest #2:
     
    The answers are NO and NO.  I have no time to deal with the Siri ideologues. 
     
    I will amend my answer to the first condensed question as YES. I didn't read it carefully enough.
     
    The other answer remains a resounding NO as God never inspires anyone to do or to be a formal cooperator in evil.
     
    God permits us to do evil, but it is impossible for Him to inspire us to do so.
     
    Response from Priest #3:
     
    "Ultimately is it possible for God to willingly inspire through revelation or apparition a person to do evil?" --- How can you even think this??? God is absolutely holy and not a devil!!!
     
    Response from Priest #4:
     
    I don't think God would inspire such a thing. He can allow evil but not command an evil act. For the about the 1st 300 years all the Popes were martyrs for the Faith.
     
    Response from Priest #5:
     
    Only God can judge. If Cardinal Siri was offered the papacy and declined due to duress, he would be responsible to a degree, for the turmoil that followed. Any leader, shirking his or her duty, knowing someone who in competent or evil could take the post, bears some responsibility for the ills that follow.
     
     God would not inspire someone to be cowardly to accomplish something. It would have to be a free choice of the individual.

     
    Read Vatican II Exposed as Counterfeit Catholicism for more information regarding Cardinal Siri who went along with the changes and was not a pope.


    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #28 on: December 06, 2019, 11:10:02 AM »
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  • You really wasted 5 priests' time on this?

    Just sounds like you have an ax to grind against this individual.  Plus, you are attempting to conflate this particular speculation with the Siri thesis as a whole.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: WAS SIRI POPE UNTIL HE DIED?
    « Reply #29 on: December 06, 2019, 11:13:07 AM »
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  • Are you scowling?  Are you as irritated all the time as you seem? 
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church