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Author Topic: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.  (Read 7459 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2019, 03:11:03 PM »
Quote from: tdrev123 on August 10, 2019, 05:59:32 PM
It is almost calumny to say that the modern trad groups especially the sedevacantist ones share the same ecclesiology as Vatican 2.  The Vatican 2 ecclesiology is much more catholic and orthodox then Sanborn and Fellay etc!  
I think much more people in the indult crowd actually believe in EENS than dogmatic sedevacantists.  
You will find many people who own Bread of Life or something else in the indult or serious Novus ordo households than in so called trad groups.  Just look at what happened with Michael Voris ---almost everyone on his channel supported his videos supporting the SBC.  

The modern trad group leaders are complete heretics on EENS, there is no other way to put it.  
Very good observation, I never thought of it that way, but you are right. All of the books and articles I see against the traditional belief of the absolute necessity of the sacrament of baptism for salvation, and EENS as it is written, are all SSPX and Sede's. Why is that? Why are they so hostile against people who will not accept their belief that "Muslim, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it" (and are thus saved). 

I am told that some sede groups (Brooksville, FL ?)  openly post in their chapels that no "Feeneyite heretics" will be given communion! That is really insane, to call oneself a traditionalist and at the same time  banning people who refuse to believe the novelty of anybody can be saved without baptism. It is one thing to believe that novelty and keep it to yourself, it is another thing to openly teach it (a mortal sin?), and it is off the charts to actually throw people out who do not believe your novelty. They are insane!
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2019, 03:17:10 PM »
Quote from: trad123 on August 11, 2019, 03:02:05 PM
I think it is.

Both the Novus Ordo and the traditional Catholic groups have an ecclesiology that ranks a number of men (even if the latter thinks that number is rather small) from all religions as being united to the Church.

Does anyone else recall listening to a sermon at: traditionalcatholicsermons.org/wordpress/

and having an example used of a illiterate Eastern "Orthodox" peasant in good faith / invincible ignorance?
You are right, except they always hide behind baptism of desire of the catechumen or a baptized Protestant that does a perfect act of contrition, and defend those positions ad-nauseum, while what they really believe is that  Muslim, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it (and are saved)

That is why I said this is not about a baptized Protestant.
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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2019, 04:02:36 PM »
Quote from: trad123 on August 11, 2019, 03:02:05 PM
I think it is.

Both the Novus Ordo and the traditional Catholic groups have an ecclesiology that ranks a number of men (even if the latter thinks that number is rather small) from all religions as being united to the Church.

Does anyone else recall listening to a sermon at: traditionalcatholicsermons.org/wordpress/

and having an example used of a illiterate Eastern "Orthodox" peasant in good faith / invincible ignorance?
I’d need to listen to that, but I wouldn’t bring up said ignorant peasant in an invincible ignorance context.
Rather I’d say he’s Catholic, barring a culpable decision of schism.  Which, as an illiterate peasant, he probably hasn’t made 
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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2019, 04:04:01 PM »
Quote from: tdrev123 on August 10, 2019, 05:59:32 PM
It is almost calumny to say that the modern trad groups especially the sedevacantist ones share the same ecclesiology as Vatican 2.  The Vatican 2 ecclesiology is much more catholic and orthodox then Sanborn and Fellay etc!  
I think much more people in the indult crowd actually believe in EENS than dogmatic sedevacantists.  
You will find many people who own Bread of Life or something else in the indult or serious Novus ordo households than in so called trad groups.  Just look at what happened with Michael Voris ---almost everyone on his channel supported his videos supporting the SBC.  

The modern trad group leaders are complete heretics on EENS, there is no other way to put it.  
I’d support them, and this despite the fact I’d be thrown into the heretic crowd by you I think.  For one thing, I’m not a perfectionist, and for another, I think EENS is both seriously neglected and important 
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Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2019, 04:38:02 PM »
Pope Gregory XVI - 1832
Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm


Quote
2. Therefore, guided by the example of Our predecessors, We are grieved to hear reports from your dioceses which indicate that some of the people committed to your care freely encourage mixed marriages. Furthermore, they are promoting opinions contrary to the Catholic faith: namely, they dare to affirm that a Catholic may freely and legally contract marriage with a heterodox party, not only without asking for a dispensation (which must be obtained from the Apostolic See in each individual case), but also without agreeing to the necessary obligations, especially the duty to educate all the offspring in the Catholic religion. Indeed it has even come to the point that these same persons insist that mixed marriages ought to be approved when the heretical partner is a divorced person whose former spouse is still alive. To this end they issue serious threats of punishments in order to induce priests to announce mixed marriages in the churches and, afterwards, to defend the act by which these marriages were contracted or, at least, to grant the contracting parties what they call dimissory letters.

Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.


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