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Offline trad123

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Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
« on: August 10, 2019, 01:24:15 AM »
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  • https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/why-do-all-major-trad-organisations-teach-those-in-false-religions-can-be-saved/msg661645/#msg661645


    Quote
    Are you sure you've not mis-assessed the position of those you mention in your OP?  The claim that ABL and the CMRI are each committed to Vatican II soteriology is one that crops up again and again, but I've never seen sufficient evidence that this is the case for either.



    Unitatis Redintegratio, Decree on Ecumenism

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html


    Quote
    3.

    (. . .)

    Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.


    Dominus Iesus

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

    Quote
    12.

    (. . .)

    Furthermore, the salvific action of Jesus Christ, with and through his Spirit, extends beyond the visible boundaries of the Church to all humanity. Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of resurrection, the Council states: “All this holds true not only for Christians but also for all men of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly. For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery”.37

    (37) Second Vatican Council, Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et spes, 22.


    CCC, 847:

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/catechism/index.cfm?recnum=3077


    Quote
    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.




    Lumen Gentium, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html


    Quote
    15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter.

    ( . . .)

    They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.

    16.

    (. . .)

    Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.


    CCC 1281

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm\


    Quote
    Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).



    An Interview with Karl Rahner on the State of Catholic Theology Today

    http://www.innerexplorations.com/chtheomortext/kr.htm

    Quote

    Toe: Tell us something about your ideas on what you call anonymous Christianity.



    Rahner: "Anonymous Christianity means that a person lives in the grace of God and attains salvation outside of explicitly constituted Christianity… Let us say, a Buddhist monk… who, because he follows his conscience, attains salvation and lives in the grace of God; of him I must say that he is an anonymous Christian; if not, I would have to presuppose that there is a genuine path to salvation that really attains that goal, but that simply has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. But I cannot do that. And so, if I hold if everyone depends upon Jesus Christ for salvation, and if at the same time I hold that many live in the world who have not expressly recognized Jesus Christ, then there remains in my opinion nothing else but to take up this postulate of an anonymous Christianity."11





    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/08Aug/aug4str.htm


    Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre: Page 216:

    Quote
    Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion. There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire. It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.


    Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre: Page 217:

    Quote
    "One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…"


    Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre: Pages 217-218:

    Quote
    "This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned. It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church: 'Outside the Church there is no salvation.' When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell. Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. This must be preached."


    Bishop Lefebvre, Sermon at first Mass of a newly ordained priest (Geneva: 1976):

    Quote
    "We are Catholics; we affirm our faith in the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; we affirm our faith in the divinity of the Holy Catholic Church; we think that Jesus Christ is the sole way, the sole truth, the sole life, and that one cannot be saved outside Our Lord Jesus Christ and consequently outside His Mystical Spouse, the Holy Catholic Church. No doubt, the graces of God are distributed outside the Catholic Church, but those who are saved, even outside the Catholic Church, are saved by the Catholic Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it, even if they are unaware of it..."


    Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, 2005, p. 10:

    Quote
    "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."


    Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of SSPX, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006:

    Quote
    Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to Heaven."


    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic, Fenton Article, Fall 2003, p. 6:


    Quote
    "So, is it true and an article of faith that 'outside the Church there is no salvation'? Yes, it is. Does this mean that a person, no matter how praiseworthy a life he may have led, will be eternally lost who, through no grave fault of his own, is not an actual member of the Church at the moment of death? No, it does not."


    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic, Fenton Article, Fall 2003, p. 7:


    Quote
    "With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death. It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny."


    Bishop Donald Sanborn, Sacerdotium V, p. 24:


    Quote
    "Vatican II's idea of the Church is heretical, since it identifies organized religions of pagans and idolaters with the Mystical Body of Christ. The truth is that in no way are pagans and idolaters, as pagans and idolaters, united to the Mystical Body of Christ. If, by some mystery of Providence and Predestination, they [pagans and idolaters] are united to the soul of the Church, and by desire to its body, it is in spite of their paganism and idolatry. It is due to an invincible ignorance of their error."


    Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt, I Baptize With Water, p. 18, quoting from Fr. Tanquery with approval:


    Quote
    "Necessity of means, however, is not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In certain particular circumstances, for example, in the case of the invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership in the Church can be supplied by the desire for this membership. It is not necessary that this be explicitly present; it can be included in a willingness and readiness to fulfill the will of God. In this way those who are outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation." (Catholic Research Institute)


    Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt, I Baptize With Water, p. 17:


    Quote
    "Are there any more 'good faith' pagans in existence? Is it possible for the Communists of China or the faithful adherents of Buddhism and Mohammedism of the Near and Far East to either have never heard the Gospel, or else had the Gospel presented to them in an erroneous light?... Can the Chinese Communist, or the Indian Buddhist or the Pakistani Muslim be included in such a consideration [of invincible ignorance]? Only God knows, and it is not up to me to decide for Him. I write here merely to uphold the dogmatic principle of the possibility of such cases today, without admitting that all, or even a significant number of those who are in such circumstances will achieve salvation through justification."
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #1 on: August 10, 2019, 01:27:33 AM »
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  • Pius IX

    Allocution to the cardinals on the Consistory of the 17th of December, 1847:

    The life of Pope Pius IX and the great events in the history of the Church during his pontificate by John Gilmary Shea, published 1877, pgs. 97 - 103

    https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfPopePiusIX1877


    Quote
    It is assuredly not unknown to you, venerable brethren, that in our times many of the enemies of the Catholic faith especially direct their efforts toward placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or of confounding it therewith, and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions.


    But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system. (. . .) as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life." We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.





    Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre: Pages 217-218:



    Quote
    "This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned. It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church: 'Outside the Church there is no salvation.' When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell. Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. This must be preached."
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #2 on: August 10, 2019, 01:28:47 AM »
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  • Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, 1832

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm



    Quote
    13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”[18] Let them hear Jerome who, while the Church was torn into three parts by schism, tells us that whenever someone tried to persuade him to join his group he always exclaimed: “He who is for the See of Peter is for me.”[19] A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: “The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?”

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #3 on: August 10, 2019, 01:33:10 AM »
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  • Pius IX

    On Promotion of False Doctrines, 1863

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm


    Quote
    7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

    19.

    (. . .)

    Let us pray that the errant be flooded with the light of his divine grace, may turn back from the path of error into the way of truth and justice and, experiencing the worthy fruit of repentance, may possess perpetual love and fear of his holy name.





    Leo XIII


    On Mission Societies, 1880

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13mis.htm



    Quote
    6.

    (. . .)

    Do men like these pour forth their prayers to God that in His mercy he may bring to the Divine light of the Gospel by His victorious grace the people sitting in the darkness?

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #4 on: August 10, 2019, 01:35:09 AM »
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  • http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=2+Corinthians+4%3A3-4+&b=drb


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #5 on: August 10, 2019, 01:51:53 AM »
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  • Quote
    But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system. (. . .) as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life." We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=68


    The New Ecclesiology: An Overview Most Rev. Donald J. Sanborn

    (. . .)

    II. The Traditional Ecclesiology


    Quote
    Those who are validly baptized in non-Catholic sects are presumed by Church law to participate in and assent to the sins of heresy and/or schism of their respective sects. Privately, however, they may be not guilty of these sins, owing to invincible ignorance of the true Faith, in which case they may belong to the Catholic Church by desire, provided they fulfill other conditions.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #6 on: August 10, 2019, 02:03:04 AM »
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  • Quote
    But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system. (. . .) as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life." We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.



    The New Ecclesiology: Documentation, by Most Rev. Donald J. Sanborn

    www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/ecclesiology.pdf



    Commentary, Page 7:


    Quote
    Therefore those who adhere to the Vatican II ecclesiology are straying from divine truth.


    Commentary, Page 18:


    Quote
    Heretical and schismatics sects are not a means of salvation, and  those who adhere to them have no hope of heaven, unless they are excused from fault because of invincible ignorance.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #7 on: August 10, 2019, 02:09:35 AM »
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  • Rev. Curzio Nitoglia

    An analysis of three principal errors of Vatican II: Personalism, a false notion of the Church, and collegiality

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=32&catname=10


    Quote
    Therefore if some member of a non-catholic sect sanctifies himself, he owes that to the grace of God which blows where it will and touches him despite the false principles of a sect in which he finds himself through invincible ignorance.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #8 on: August 10, 2019, 02:30:26 AM »
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  • http://www.thetradforum.com//index.php?topic=406.msg5590#msg5590


    Quote
    I never understood the questioning of implicit desire when there are a number of pre-Vatican II Catholic catechisms that specifically teach it.

    Quote
    Agreed, but to the Feenyite, this is simply pre-Vatican II modernism.


    As if Vatican II happened in a vacuum. It had it's roots.

    That goes for implicit desire, denial of the Athanasius creed, an aberration of the visible unity of the Church wherein non-members are supposedly united to the Church, yet publicly profess an alien faith.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #9 on: August 10, 2019, 03:03:18 AM »
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  • From the Baltimore Catechism;

    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?
    A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church?
    A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #10 on: August 10, 2019, 03:43:45 AM »
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  • From the Baltimore Catechism;

    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?
    A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church?
    A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church

    If people who believe in so-called "baptism of desire", restricted their belief to the above quotes from an older Baltimore Catechism, all these threads on EENS would not exist on CI. 

    Unfortunately 99% of believers in so-called baptism of desire, believe that any non-baptized person can be saved, that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, non-Catholics in every false religion, can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. This thread is not about those non-Catholics who are validly baptized,   what this thread is about, that even traditionalist groups teach in their seminaries and to the faithful that non-Catholics in every false religion can be saved without being validly baptized, without desiring to be baptized, without desiring to be Catholics, without belief in Jesus Christ or the Holy Trinity, indeed, even despising all that is Catholic. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #11 on: August 10, 2019, 04:12:06 AM »
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  • Very good Trad123, it is all there in one place for all to see for themselves. As I said before:


    Quote
    The SSPX teaches it because they are flawed, it is their Achilles heal and a sign for those seeking truth to NOT follow them blindly or with absolute trust. It is the sign that they will eventually rationalize ANYTHING, including joining Rome (like the SSPX is attempting), or declaring themselves pope. This is why I do not follow them with certainty of faith, I just take what good they (trad groups) have to offer . You have the Vatican II sect and you have the trad groups that teach the same thing regarding EENS, that Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, indeed people in any "religion" can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline poche

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #12 on: August 10, 2019, 05:29:08 AM »
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  • What about cases of invincible ignorance?

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #13 on: August 10, 2019, 06:39:27 AM »
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  • What about cases of invincible ignorance?

    Invincible ignorance until death means that God chose to not introduce the candidate to the gospel, to not lead the candidate to the Church and the sacraments. It means that God chose to not reward the candidate with salvation.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.
    « Reply #14 on: August 10, 2019, 10:20:20 AM »
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  • When someone brings up Pius IX and makes the bold claim he inferred the salvation of non-Catholics, at that point, that person has committed slander against Pius IX.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

     

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