Author Topic: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc. (Read 7413 times)

trad123 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 10, 2019, 11:16:40 AM »

Bishop Sanborn, are you listening?

You share the ecclesiology of the Novus Ordo, whether you realize it or not.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-there-really-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church

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A Catholic Contradiction?

Perhaps the one paragraph in the CCC used more than any other to “prove” Catholics contradict themselves with regard to this the doctrine “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” is paragraph 841, which is given to us under the heading: “The Church’s Relationship with the Muslims”:

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

“See? Here the Church says Muslims can be saved. What up with that?”

Well, this has to be understood in the context of what the Catechism says else where, and as I quoted it above: Those Muslims (and as we will see in more detail, anyone of any religion, or even the non-religious could be included here) who are not responsible for their ignorance of the Catholic Faith can indeed be saved.

Now, contrary to what you may have read elsewhere, CCC 841 is not saying “anyone who is a good Joe will go to heaven.” A Jєωιѕн person will not make it to heaven by being a good Jew, or a Muslim by being a good Muslim, a Protestant by being a good Protestant, etc. In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man can come to the Father except by me.” He seems to be quite plain in this text that he is essential to the equation. And not only is Christ essential to the equation, but also Christ speaking through his Church. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). The Church is “the fullness of him who fills all in all” (Eph. 1:23). The Church is Christ in the world. It is almighty God who willed “that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known” (Ephesians 3:10). To reject the Church is to reject Christ because it was Christ who gave authority to the Church and declared:

If he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 18:17-18).

In a nutshell, you cannot separate rejecting the Church with rejecting Christ according to Scripture and the teaching of the Catholic Church. In other words, one cannot just create his own religion and follow the “Jesus” of his own creation and choosing without there being eternal consequences.

Breaking it Down

As an apologist, I find the real issue here to be a conceptual disconnect between the dogma—extra ecclesiam nulla salus—and the idea that some people who are not formally Catholic can be saved. And this is understandable. One way I have found some success in helping folks to bridge this divide is to note what I mentioned in brief before, i.e., the Church teaches the possibility of salvation for people who do not have what we call a formal relationship with the Church, i.e., they are not on the registry at a local Catholic parish, yet they do indeed have a salvific relationship with the Church.

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 10, 2019, 05:35:09 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 10, 2019, 03:43:45 AM

If people who believe in so-called "baptism of desire", restricted their belief to the above quotes from an older Baltimore Catechism, all these threads on EENS would not exist on CI.

Unfortunately 99% of believers in so-called baptism of desire, believe that any non-baptized person can be saved, that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, non-Catholics in every false religion, can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. This thread is not about those non-Catholics who are validly baptized, what this thread is about, that even traditionalist groups teach in their seminaries and to the faithful that non-Catholics in every false religion can be saved without being validly baptized, without desiring to be baptized, without desiring to be Catholics, without belief in Jesus Christ or the Holy Trinity, indeed, even despising all that is Catholic.

It would be debated just because of Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, and the like.

tdrev123 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 10, 2019, 05:59:32 PM »

It is almost calumny to say that the modern trad groups especially the sedevacantist ones share the same ecclesiology as Vatican 2. The Vatican 2 ecclesiology is much more catholic and orthodox then Sanborn and Fellay etc!
I think much more people in the indult crowd actually believe in EENS than dogmatic sedevacantists.
You will find many people who own Bread of Life or something else in the indult or serious Novus ordo households than in so called trad groups. Just look at what happened with Michael Voris ---almost everyone on his channel supported his videos supporting the SBC.

The modern trad group leaders are complete heretics on EENS, there is no other way to put it.

trad123 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2019, 02:53:44 PM »

Quote from: tdrev123 on August 10, 2019, 05:59:32 PM

It is almost calumny to say that the modern trad groups especially the sedevacantist ones share the same ecclesiology as Vatican 2. The Vatican 2 ecclesiology is much more catholic and orthodox then Sanborn and Fellay etc!

It seems rather consistent:

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/will-the-real-catechism-of-pius-x-please-stand-up/msg663009/#msg663009

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On page 74 of +ABL's book "Open Letter to Confused Catholics"., it reads:

"The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows amongst Protestants, Muslim, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this they become part of the Church".

Dominus Iesus

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/docuмents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

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12.

(. . .)

Furthermore, the salvific action of Jesus Christ, with and through his Spirit, extends beyond the visible boundaries of the Church to all humanity. Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of resurrection, the Council states: “All this holds true not only for Christians but also for all men of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly. For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery”.37

(37) Second Vatican Council, Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et spes, 22.

trad123 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2019, 03:02:05 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 10, 2019, 03:43:45 AM

This thread is not about those non-Catholics who are validly baptized

I think it is.

Both the Novus Ordo and the traditional Catholic groups have an ecclesiology that ranks a number of men (even if the latter thinks that number is rather small) from all religions as being united to the Church.

Does anyone else recall listening to a sermon at: traditionalcatholicsermons.org/wordpress/

and having an example used of a illiterate Eastern "Orthodox" peasant in good faith / invincible ignorance?

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc. (Read 7413 times)

trad123

Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.

ByzCat3000

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tdrev123

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trad123

Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.

trad123

Re: Vatican II Ecclesiology and CMRI, SSPX, SSPV, etc.